Silgrad Tower from the Ashes

There are three things to know about Rimmen that are important.

First, it's not 'officially' part of Elsweyr, but they pay tribute to the Mane, and were once Khajiiti territory, and stand between Cyrodiil and Elsweyr, so we probably should make the territory.

Second, the Hall of Collosus was in Rimmen. That's where Tiber Septim housed Numidium, the Dwemeri god-construct, while fixing it and working on activating it. It's also where Zurin Arctus, Imperial Battlemage, succeeded in creating the Mantella from his own life-force in order to power the thing. A god was more-or-less born there. A Khajiit, actually one of the elite Mane bodyguards, records that the area is covered in green glowing rocks and is poisonous - apparently either the creation of the Mantella or the activation of Numidium irradiated the area. I'm guessing the former, since other activations of Numidium (at least one, at the end of TES2, using the Mantella, and possibly two others, if you think the Dwemer and/or Dagoth Ur activated it, though they would have both used the Heart). So there is the possibility that the area is dangerous to enter.

Third, 'Rimmen' refers to a people, the Rim-men, as much as it does a place.

Quote:The Pocket Guide to the Empire
Attrebus, though he lasted no longer than most of the pretender kings of that period, thought he might rid Cyrodiil of the foreigners who had ruled it for the first half of the Common Era, and he drove the Akaviris past the Empire's borders into Elsweyr. The khajiit granted them asylum in the hills and steppes of northwestern Elsweyr, where they dwelt in relative seclusion until remnants of the Dir-Kamal resurfaced in Cyrodiil, seizing the Throne from Attrebus' successors. The Rimmen (literally, the "Rim Men," as the khajiit called them) joined their brothers to try to rebuild the Empire. This effort was doomed to failure, but not before the khajiit attempted to reclaim their lands in a series of bloody border wars. Currently, since the ascension of Tiber Septim, the hapless Rimmen have once again submitted to the protection of the Mane, with a renewed tribute paying for the Cat Lord's guarantee of their independence, a truly weak reed upon which to lean.

If you need some Tamrielan history to understand that quote, here is the relevant details:

Quote:Guide to Akavir

At the end of the 1st Era, Akavir from Tsaesci invaded Tamriel. Reman I, a Colovian, joined his army with the army of the Nibenay valley to beat the invasion back to the North and finally defeated them in the Pale Pass of Skyrim. This military action, through the unification of the Cyrodilic armies and its protection of the northern territories, is what started the 2nd Empire- the 1st true empire of the Cyrodiils. Note- in order to bolster his forces against the Elves, Remen granted the Akaviri who were left over from the battles amnesty, and they were allowed to stay in Tamriel and fight for the Empire. This becomes important many years later.

Reman's dynasty lasted until around 1E2900 when the last of his line was executed by the Morag Tong. For the next four hundred years the 2nd Empire was ruled by the Serpent Akavir Potentate Versidue-Shaie. Versidue-Shaie ruled until he was executed in 2E 324 by the Morag Tong. The group was outlawed in the Empire after this act, but continued to exist under the name "The Dark Brotherhood". The Dark Brotherhood continued its murders with the assassinations of Potentate Savirien-Chorak and his heirs. This succession crisis is what ended the 2nd Empire.

So there could be Tsaesci living there. The fact that they are living there "since the ascension of Tiber Septim" means they survived whatever irradiation was caused by the Mantella. This is somewhat problematic - there are few good descriptions of the Tsaesci, and as much as I'd love to see them, they're very difficult to create with Oblivion's engine - it's not really designed for a character who slithers. Unless we made them creatures, which is less desirable, considering that limits their armament considerably, to just weapon & shield, creating them is hard. It has been done in Morrowind (though I disagree with certain decisions they made in their look), but the tail looks less than superb. Still quite good, though. But it's quite a challenge to add to this project. There are certainly ways around it, to be sure (we could easily make the entire area of Rimmen unenterable due to radiation, or the Tsaesci could have died out or become mingled into the native population), but I figured I'd bring it up.

Some of the better descriptions of the Tsaesci I've been able to find:

Quote:Guide to Akavir

Tsaesci- means "Snake Palace". It is populated with the race that most people think of when they think of Akavir- the Immortal Vampire Serpent Men. These tall, golden scaled, beautifully imposing creatures wiped out the Men that used to live in Akavir. They also possess what was once the largest empire of Akavir (before the rise of Ka Po' Tun), and they enslave the various goblin races around them for a supply of fresh blood.

Quote:the Blades have Akavir [Tsaesci] military dress and banners of Akaviri [Tsaesci] style.

Quote:They are tall, beautiful (if frightening), covered in golden scales

Quote:Akaviri [Tsaesci] surnames are rare and prized possessions among the Cyrodilic citizenry of today, and there are trace facial features of the Akaviri in many distinguished Cyrodilic families. Some colonies of "true Akaviri" [Tsaesci] still exist in both the Empire and its border regions, but they are named so only for their practices and customs than for the purity of their blood.

(this supports the idea that they could have been bred out of existance as snake-men)

Quote:When it comes to weapon and armour development, the Tsaesci imported many innovative new techniques. The prized Dragonscale armor, which offers such a fine balance between weight and protection, is a Tsaesci invention.

The Akaviri [Tsaesci] imported also some of the most valued blades in Tamriel. The idea of a curved, one-edged blade was a totally new concept. From the short, dagger-like tanto and the slashing wakizashi to the razor-sharp katana and the even longer dai-katana, all Akaviri [Tsaesci] weapons are considered to be good, if not better alternatives for their straight Tamrielic counterparts. The latter two, though elegant and efficient, are too expensive and sophisticated to be popular with the Legions or hero-adventurers. They are very subtle in technique, but once mastered provide superior balance and effectiveness.

(gives you an idea of their equipment)

Quote:2920, The Last Year of the First Era

[a description of a duel between the son of the Emperor and the son of the Tsaesci Potentate]

[...]
Savirien-Chorak, a glistening ivory-yellow eel, gripping his katana and wakizashi with his thin, deceptively weak looking arms.
[...]
[Potentate Versidue-Shaie, father of Savirien-Chorak] "At last we can settle which philosophy is better -- to create armor to combat swords as your people [Cyrodiils, humans] do, or to create swords to combat armor as mine [Tsaesci] do."
[...]
No one in the crowd, aside from a few scattered Akaviri counselors and the Potentate himself wanted Savirien-Chorak to win, but there was a collective intake of breath at the sight of his graceful movements. His swords seemed to be a part of him, a tail coming from his arms to match the one behind him. It was a trick of counterbalance, allowing the young serpent man to roll up into a circle and spin into the center of the ring in offensive position.
[...]
As they sprang at each other, the crowd bellowed with delight. The Akaviri was like a moon in orbit around the Prince, effortlessly springing over his shoulder to attempt a blow from behind, but the Prince whirled around quickly to block with his shield. His counter-strike met only air as his foe fell flat to the ground and slithered between his legs, tripping him. The Prince fell to the ground with a resounding crash.

Metal and air melted together as Savirien-Chorak rained strike after strike upon the Prince, who blocked every one with his shield.

"We don't have shields in our culture," murmured Versidue-Shaie to the Emperor. "It seems strange to my boy, I imagine. In our country, if you don't want to get hit, you move out of the way."

When Savirien-Chorak was rearing back to begin another series of blinding attacks, the Prince kicked at his tail, sending him falling back momentarily. In an instant, he had rebounded, but the Prince was also back on his feet. The two circled one another, until the snake man spun forward, katana extended. The Prince saw his foe's plan, and blocked the katana with his longsword and the wakizashi with his shield. Its short punching blade impaled itself in the metal, and Savirien-Chorak was thrown off balance.

The Prince's longblade slashed across the Akavir's chest and the sudden, intense pain caused him to drop both his weapons. It a moment, it was over. Savirien-Chorak was prostate in the dust with the Prince's longsword at his throat.
[...much later, preparing for a battle against Morrowind...]
When Potentate Versidue-Shaie spoke, the Emperor jumped. How that Akavir could slither across the grass without making a sound was a mystery to him.

Most notable is the idea that the Tsaesci are beautiful, to human beings. While below the waist they're all snake, with a tail (sorta like a Gorgon or Naga), but apparently that's not enough to disinterest the general public. They're also covered in golden scales, but are still beautiful. My thoughts - above the waist they must be quite humanoid. Further, they must have rather human faces and they must have something resembling hair - bald people are not usually considered "beautiful". There is no mention of female Tsaesci in Tamriel, but if there are any "Tsaesci colonies" then there must be. And if they fit the "beautiful" stereotype, I'm thinking they must have breasts. Which makes little sense if they're covered in scales, however...

There is also this description of Savirien-Chorak as an "ivory-yellow eel" - he's not "covered" in his golden scales. While he is young, he is definitely an adult - his age is about the same as the Prince's, and the Prince is the leader of armies and the conqueror (sort of) of Morrowind, the last province holding out against Cyrodiil. They are certainly mature, just not old. So I don't think his "ivory" part is due to age. My thinking is that the scales end somewhere below the chest, and they have ivory skin above that. The breasts of the female would make more sense in this light, as would their overall beauty - the average human is repulsed by scales, I find it hard to reconcile a stereotype of beauty with scales. While I think snakes in general are rather gorgeous in their simplicity and efficiency, that's certainly not the stereotype (and this is generally borne out in Tamriel as well as Earth).

Unfortunately, the other description specifically states "covered in golden scales," and that description is in a book specifically about the Akavir, while 2920 is kinda like historical fiction. It also describes them as using Dragonscale armor, though, so maybe the chest is covered with that - if the tail and arms are covered in scales, and they're wearing a cuirass and helm of some sort, even an open one, the "covered" description might be expected, especially if the author's description comes primarily from the description of the Tsaesci warriors from Tamrielan warriors - not a great source of information.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Interesting to me, anyway, even if we do not create the Tsaesci. The first two points are worth considering.

:yes: very good.... but since it has been many years since the Tsaesci themselves have been in any way important on Tamriel I suppose they have been lost... as in after hundreds of years of Tsaesci mating with Tamrielic races, they are now no longer actually on Tamriel. Also, another thing to consider, Tamrielic folks are normally very open, especially Cyrodiilics.... in "THe Real Barenziah" it seems Barenziah has no problems making love with a Khajit, and a Nords, etc.etc., there is not too much racism but more stereotype... so Tsaesci maybe have beast upper body as well, just not ugly to the Imperial culture.... I mean if you look at Imperial culture, it is very different and very open to other cultures and races/species.

another thing to think about is that the Tsaesci came as invaders.... and nowhere does it say they brought their women....

I disagree with the thought that Tamrielans are not racist - while Barenziah was a horny little slut, most of the continent has their own racial hatreds - and almost no one trusts the beasts. For the Tsaesci to be viewed as different from the beasts, I think they must have been visually appealing. Remember, they invaded Tamriel, so they couldn't have been popular to begin with. It would have been very easy for them to have been demonized, but instead they were respected. Tamrielans do not respect beasts, and in fact, there is a quote in 2920 specifically saying that the Tsaesci do not count as "beastmen" - the Emperor tells the Potentate that he never did trust beastmen, and the book explicitly states that the Potentate was not offended by the comment because he well knew that "beastmen" was exclusively the aboriginal peoples of Tamriel, and not the Tsaesci. Therefore, they must have been different from the beasts, and I think this is fairly conclusive evidence, at least, that they really were beautiful in a very human sense. What do you think of the "covered with golden scales" versus "ivory-yellow eel" descriptions? Does my thought process seem reasonable with regards to their scales?

As far as their women, further reading reveals another quote from 2920 (I'm really liking this book) - Savirien-Chorak, the Potentate's son, has never been in Akavir. He was born and raised in Cyrodiil - his mother must be there.

hmmm.... I read that Last Year book last year... too long ago.... damn
well I rest my case... but the Septim line of the Third Era, the Empire of today promotes equality... of race
sure, they might not like betmeri, but you must remember, times change.... what was the transition between 1st to 2nd Era's views might not be the same as the 3rd to 4th era's popular views
plus I meant Cyrodiilics.... sorry if I was bad at my explaining....
see, if I am not mistaken, aren't the orcs beginning to be accepted though without a province? Aren't Kkhajit more respected? and Argonians? The Cyrodiilics don't mind them so much, as long as they are Imperialized. Of course Dunmer as a whole are mostly an exception, and there are plenty of exceptions in other races too...

and about Tsaesci women, yes I guess the Potente has his wife... but what about the Tsaesci invasions? they were mostly raiders that had EXTREMELY competent generals able to campaign on foreign land... I doubt they'd have their wives and children with them.... probably only the leaders could bring their families or could afford to...


I mean, of course the races probably aren't buddies, but their seems to be more respect now than before.... before betmeri were all looked down on, different Mer warred on one another, and me fought men and everyone fought everyone... but as of now, there is a bit more respect going on, though a bit of a grudging respect... hrug:

Even if the Betmer are treated well now, this is nearly 400 years later... a lot can change. For instance, the Orcs have earned at least the Empire's respect by serving dutifully in the Legions.

exactly my point.... it is a long time later from the First Age, times change, people change, culture changes
plus.... since this mod is of Elsweyr in TES4 not back in the First Age going on Second Age right?

Alright, the Rim-men are last mentioned in 2E 864, as "currently" residing in Elsweyr in the PGE. The second era's last year is 896. Oblivion takes place in 3E 433. That means there are 465 years since the last time they are mentioned. Given that they have their own independent territory, they're could still be there.

Regardless, since there are innumerable ways around this for us, it's really not an issue for this mod. At this point I'm just talking.

Hell, there'll be a new version of PGE coming with Oblivion. I'll just read that and see if they're mentioned. Maybe Bethesda will answer our question for us.

Anyway, regarding what the Tsaesci were like, what do you think of my theories?

not bad, very well deduced theories....
personally I would say they were eel/snake like but smoother skin.... ivory/goldish coloration, but very varied of course... and had a face that was humanoid, but yet semi-reptilian... of course the fact they weren't looked on as the betmeri means they integrated very well into Cyrodiilic society... infact they contributed to the power of Cyrodiilics especialyl with their control during the Reman dynasty.... they ended up giving the Cyrodiilics a stronger Empire that spread all over Tamriel...
I think it is very possible there are a few Tsaesci here and there still on Tamriel.... but their numbers probably don't exceed 100 and probably don't live as pirates and raiders any more....

an interesting thing is that Tsaesci are said to have enslaved goblins back in Akavir... could mean that betmer evolved a long time ago when the Nirn was all one land? or does it mean animals on both continents evolved similarly? hrug: and simply misnomer and so called goblins?

The only thing is that the goblin thing is a dev quote, not actually part of the official lore from the game. Which means it might be true, but it might not.

Tamriel, Atmora, Yokuda, Akavir, Aldmeris, and Pyanodea (sp?) have always been separate, that is for sure.

I was thinking about it, and I've come up with an explanation for Rimmen. If we're going to have to start taking leaps to fill in holes in the lore, then here's the first major assumption.

The poisonous green rocks, around the Colossus. Throughout the 1008 year dragon break, someone knew what was happening. They attempted to stop it but this was very difficult. It's your typical scifi scenario, where time keeps repeating and you figure out that it's happening but by the time you can do anything you're back at the beginning (when you didn't know anything), so you leave little clues behind. Indescript notes, etc. We know the Mantella itself contained the soul of Zurin Arctus, the Underking, and that it was green. We know that at the end of Daggerfall Arctus finally got to Aethurius, the afterlife.

During the warp in the west the Numidium was seen in 6 different places at once due to the time fluxuations. Now I think during the 1008 year break someone figured out what was going on and attempted to stop it, over and over and over, at the Halls of Colossus. Each failure is represented by a new Mantella nearby. The poisonous green rocks. Now how can each rock contain the soul of Zurin Arctus, who is now in the afterlife, as there is only one soul?

When an Oblivion gate opens, it (for lack of a better word) "channels", a bit of Oblivion onto our world. The skies turn red, daedra come out, etc. Now, with the link of a partial soul of the Underking, I think these rocks might do something similar with Aethurius. Now you might think but wait, an Oblivion gate is a means of travel, and the Mantella is just a soul gem. However we know that the King of Worms used it to ascend into Oblivion as a new god, so it must have some other properties we don't know about. So if these extra mantelli did have similar channeling properties, how do you channel the afterlife into the real world? Well simple, anything alive near these things is drained of life, more and more as you get closer to them. The plants, the animals, the people, everything. I wouldn't even be surprised if occasionally a ghost or two flew out.

This would certainly explain the "poisonous green rocks". What do you guys think?