Silgrad Tower from the Ashes

On the TR map, Silgrad Tower is referred to both by that name and the Dunmeri name Kogo-Tel, which means "unbreakable tower". I've researched a bit and Kogo-Tel doesn't appear to have a foundation in lore, appearing more like being a name invented by TR. I've used the name a bit in my earlier writings, and would like to ask 1) if I should cease using the name Kogo-Tel and 2) if anyone can think of a better Dunmeri name for the town, which can be referenced here and there in-game. I'm not suggesting we change the official name, just a name that stout Dunmer would refer to, for ambience.

Personally I'd pitch "Silgrad Tel", as the word Silgrad strikes me as already being a Dunmeri name. For inspiration you can check out the Dunmeri translator by Majra.

Silgrad Tower is the name of the town from the earliest Elder Scrolls games (and lore). It comes from an early map created by Bethesda.

Kogo-Tel came from TR core members -- without lore support. TR may have waved the banner of lore mastery, but there are many contradictions to lore in the TR approach... It took me a fair amount of work to get some of the most historically significant towns added to TR (River Pryai, Lake Coronati, Ald Iuval, Bodmun, etc.). I was unsuccessful on the areas of control (especially Redoran and Hlaalu) not consistent with Bethesda's lore, western towns (like Karthor Dale and Verarchen Hall), etc. Others tended to bend things to their own preferences. That is part of the reason I discontinued my efforts with TR.

Therefore: Silgrad Tower is Bethesda lore based. Kogo-Tel is a TR fabrication without any support from lore.

Can you tell I feel strongly on this?

*The Wanderer steps down from the soap box*

Ben

Ben Vagara: To clarify my post above I highlighted the portion you perhaps missed. I'd never suggest or support an idea to change the real name of our mod or main city, Silgrad Tower, but rather I would like to see a parallell Dunmeri name added for the town. One official example is Stonewood/Balmora, where Stonewood is the Imperial name (used in Arena) and Balmora the name used by the Dunmer (in Morrowind). I just feel it adds a bit of ambience for some of the Dunmer to call the town by their own name while most everyone else uses the official Imperial name.

Hmm, going by your information I can see that I have misjudged Tamriel Rebuilt. I had the impression they were very stern on lore and so I just accepted the map of Great House territories they use. To hear that it's inaccurate in regards to official lore is distressing. I would generally like to see things like that settled before any real work begins, like for example moving the Tower to the middle of the town instead of outside it. Taking into account the 'greater Silgrad area' which will hopefully include both Blacklight and your Velothi Mountains, which inaccuracies in TR's map do you think would affect our joint world? And do you recall which sources contradict the way TR set up the Great House territories?

I thought it was kindof odd that the two major towns in Rodan's Blacklight area are Hlaalu and Imperial, as I figured that area would be dominated by House Redoran. If lore says they should be that way then that's fine but if not then I think we maybe need to increase the Redoran presence there in the Oblivion mod. Either by making one of the towns Redoran or by adding a bunch of smaller Redoran settlements around those lands. Large farms would perhaps be logical for that.

Yes, I understand. With Stonewood however, Bal (stone) mora (wood or wooded) can be determined from other Dunmer names. Tel, of course, is Dunmeri for tower. Our challenge would be to come up with a Dunmeri word for "Silgrad" - which doesn't seem to have a particular meaning.

See this map from Bethesda Softworks that was release as part of the TES 10th Anniversary activities:

[email=http://til.gamingsource.net/maps/concept_morrowind.jpg] [/email]http://til.gamingsource.net/maps/concept_morrowind.jpg

This shows that when designing Morrowind (the geography), Bethesda includes a town called Silgrad Tower. You will also see that the shape of the province is similar but somewhat different from the TR project map. Also notice the difference in place names, such as Veranis Hall (TR -> Verarchen Hall), Omayni (TR has no town there, but adds Karththor Dale or Karthor Dale to the east) and so on. Note especially that there is no Reich Parkeep (always sounded out of place to me) -- it is Soluthis on the map. The TR map has other changes to the geography too. Most are not significant and frankly would not affect gameplay much...

As for where the Great Houses have territory/influence on mainland Morrowind, there are a number of in-game texts. At TR they determined that because House Hlaalu was now the most powerful faction (replacing Indoril) that they would automatically have more territory. However, most references to the territory of Hlaalu positions them to the southern area of mainland Morrowind (and now on the southwest of Vvardenfel). House Dres is southeast, Indoril central, Telvanni east, and Redoran western Morrowind. The former capital of House Redoran is the ancient city of Kragenmoor in west-southwest mainland Morrowind. Hlaalu's capital is further south at Narsis.

At TR there was a lot of discussion related to who really held sway over western Morrowind. I believe that most of western mainland Morrowind was dominated by House Redoran, however, House Hlaalu would likely be making inroads against them, taking some of their former territory. My earlier contributions in western Morrowind were dictated to be Redoran, then changed to Hlaalu. So I did them in Hlaalu. Then they shifted again. About that time I moved on...

However, part of the challenge in dealing with the premise that western Morrowind is/was Redoran is that the architectural styles of Redoran are limited. This makes designing and building cities more difficult - especially large cities. Although we did a good job on Kragenmoor's exteriors (just two of us did that one...)

Anyway, Silgrad Tower is from a Bethesda Softworks design map. Where each house actually controls territory is vague. Whether Hlallu has taken territory away from the weakened Redorans is unknown, but possible. So, Silgrad being Hlaalu is certainly possible..

There we go. Clear as mud!

Ben

... and there are still people who wonder why my view on lore is rather ... guidelinish. :lmao:

On thing that should be kept in mind is that the size of the territory a faction controls is not equal to the power it holds. Having control over the only port, the fertile land and strategic pathways and crossroads is much better than being the undisputed ruler over a gigantic desert. (Hehe, call this Machiavelli for Dummies)

So, I think it is important to display this kind of power by other meanings than the number of cities built in your style. (And I truly hope you get what I want to say :hmm: )

Greetings

Quentin

P.S.: Completely off topic ... this bloody rocks --> :bananarock:

Well said. That concept did not hold sway at TR...

Ben

Agreed - :bananarock:

Quote:Originally posted by Ben Vagara
Yes, I understand. With Stonewood however, Bal (stone) mora (wood or wooded) can be determined from other Dunmer names. Tel, of course, is Dunmeri for tower. Our challenge would be to come up with a Dunmeri word for "Silgrad" - which doesn't seem to have a particular meaning.

See this map from Bethesda Softworks that was release as part of the TES 10th Anniversary activities:

[email=http://til.gamingsource.net/maps/concept_morrowind.jpg] [/email]http://til.gamingsource.net/maps/concept_morrowind.jpg

This shows that when designing Morrowind (the geography), Bethesda includes a town called Silgrad Tower. You will also see that the shape of the province is similar but somewhat different from the TR project map. Also notice the difference in place names, such as Veranis Hall (TR -> Verarchen Hall), Omayni (TR has no town there, but adds Karththor Dale or Karthor Dale to the east) and so on. Note especially that there is no Reich Parkeep (always sounded out of place to me) -- it is Soluthis on the map. The TR map has other changes to the geography too. Most are not significant and frankly would not affect gameplay much...

As for where the Great Houses have territory/influence on mainland Morrowind, there are a number of in-game texts. At TR they determined that because House Hlaalu was now the most powerful faction (replacing Indoril) that they would automatically have more territory. However, most references to the territory of Hlaalu positions them to the southern area of mainland Morrowind (and now on the southwest of Vvardenfel). House Dres is southeast, Indoril central, Telvanni east, and Redoran western Morrowind. The former capital of House Redoran is the ancient city of Kragenmoor in west-southwest mainland Morrowind. Hlaalu's capital is further south at Narsis.

At TR there was a lot of discussion related to who really held sway over western Morrowind. I believe that most of western mainland Morrowind was dominated by House Redoran, however, House Hlaalu would likely be making inroads against them, taking some of their former territory. My earlier contributions in western Morrowind were dictated to be Redoran, then changed to Hlaalu. So I did them in Hlaalu. Then they shifted again. About that time I moved on...

However, part of the challenge in dealing with the premise that western Morrowind is/was Redoran is that the architectural styles of Redoran are limited. This makes designing and building cities more difficult - especially large cities. Although we did a good job on Kragenmoor's exteriors (just two of us did that one...)

Anyway, Silgrad Tower is from a Bethesda Softworks design map. Where each house actually controls territory is vague. Whether Hlallu has taken territory away from the weakened Redorans is unknown, but possible. So, Silgrad being Hlaalu is certainly possible..

There we go. Clear as mud!

Ben

Mm, I'm familiar with the map and thought it was highly interesting to see it after it was revealed. But I think the fuzzy Morrowind map from TES III 'overrules' the Arena map and I bet Tamriel Rebuilt went by the latter when setting up their map?

Reich Parkeep seems to be mentioned in the Daggerfall book [/i]King Edward, part III[/i], though the book refers to the town as "Reich Parthkeep". If TR renamed the town Bethesda calls Soluthis on that map, chances are they got the name from that book. Whether the RP mentioned in King Edward is supposed to be in the Morrowind Province or not, I couldn't say. But I'd say the mention in KE III makes Reich Par(th)keep an applicable town name used by Imperials, though I agree about it's strangeness as no-one I know of is supposed to speak German in Tamriel. I'd like to see us keep the name Reich Parkeep because it has a nice ring to it, I think. About Verarchen Hall/Veranis Hall, which name would you favor if you were to mod it for Oblivion?

Speaking of that, especially going on what you said about House Redoran being supposed to control most of the western mainland, perhaps it would be truer to form to make Veranis/Verarchen a Redoran town? Because with Cormaris and Blacklight being non-Redoran at the moment, I get the sense Redoran influence is hard to find. Maybe make Omayni controlled by Hlaalu, with the refugees having fled to Kragenmoor who might have a large shanty town/refugee camp outside the walls. Omayni would still be built in Redoran style though, it wouldn't make sense to raize a city to the ground and then build a new one right on top of it for no particular reason, or so I think. Of course, that's assuming the future mod will stretch that far south, but I kindof hope it will. The terrain auto-generator should give us plenty of time left over to mod towns. Heck, maybe Kragenmoor could even be a Redoran counterweight to Silgrad :yes:

I'm making good progress on the Redoran project and thanks to a generous contribution from Hoss we now have basically four buildings modelled and ready to use. By the time we're able to export the models to Silgrad Tower: Oblivion I'm confident we'll have a wealth of different Redoran building types to get a good degree of variation in those settlements. I'm also considering having a go at making an exterior tile set later on, but we'll see about that... it's easier to get a Hlaalu design to tile well, whereas Redoran houses are more asymmetrical.

Reich Parthkeep is mentioned as the village near where a Nord, "Mats", is rescued from a beating by his master. It appears that Mats is a runaway slave. Later in the same book series, Edward is discussing a village name with Beech and Akatosh. The discussion infers that Reich is similar to Keep, Glen, and Hold. None of these names are Dunmeri (ie. Hearth/Home is Dunmeri, but not Hold, Glen, Keep, and likely, Reich.) Actually they sound more like High Rock or Daggerfall provincial names.

Anyway, the Nord named Mats was a slave. However, I suspect that an assumption that the only slaves that exist are in Morrowind, might be a stretch. Besides, if he had not fled far from his master's home, then he would more likely be from southern Morrowind, where the Dres openly support slavery or the east as the Telvanni support slavery. Also, his Master may not have been a Dunmer since the text refers to him as a man and not a dark elf. Earlier in Edward, specific mention is made of a dark elf (among others).

Anyway... enough lore ramblings... Personally I would prefer the earlier name, Soluthis, as it sounds more Dunmeri. But whatever we name the town north of Silgrad Tower is fine with me.

As for the Velothi Mountains region, I think I will use the earlier names of Veranis Hall and Omayni. I will likely make both of them Redoran-style (especially with the new tile sets being developed!)

Btw, Kragenmoor is a Redoran city of nearly 90 buildings (as two of us built it for TR).

I can hardly wait for November 24th...

Ben

you said Velothi Mts. region?

hmmm.... looks like there is some overlapping of sorts.... but I guess you guys had Redoran and Hlaalu going all along... hmm... whats left for me to use my own creativity on.... Telvanni, Indoril, Dres.... and others... like Dagoth, Velothi.... hmmm......

I haven't talked to Razorwing about what parts of your guys mod will overlap with mine.... and so I don't know what part I will probably have to work on alone or with my own mod team if people here are solely devoted to western Morrowind.... if not and they don't mind doing some of the east.... that would be interesting... convergence.... hehe

Quote:Originally posted by Ben Vagara
Reich Parthkeep is mentioned as the village near where a Nord, "Mats", is rescued from a beating by his master. It appears that Mats is a runaway slave. Later in the same book series, Edward is discussing a village name with Beech and Akatosh. The discussion infers that Reich is similar to Keep, Glen, and Hold. None of these names are Dunmeri (ie. Hearth/Home is Dunmeri, but not Hold, Glen, Keep, and likely, Reich.) Actually they sound more like High Rock or Daggerfall provincial names.

Anyway, the Nord named Mats was a slave. However, I suspect that an assumption that the only slaves that exist are in Morrowind, might be a stretch. Besides, if he had not fled far from his master's home, then he would more likely be from southern Morrowind, where the Dres openly support slavery or the east as the Telvanni support slavery. Also, his Master may not have been a Dunmer since the text refers to him as a man and not a dark elf. Earlier in Edward, specific mention is made of a dark elf (among others).

Anyway... enough lore ramblings... Personally I would prefer the earlier name, Soluthis, as it sounds more Dunmeri. But whatever we name the town north of Silgrad Tower is fine with me.

As for the Velothi Mountains region, I think I will use the earlier names of Veranis Hall and Omayni. I will likely make both of them Redoran-style (especially with the new tile sets being developed!)

Btw, Kragenmoor is a Redoran city of nearly 90 buildings (as two of us built it for TR).

I can hardly wait for November 24th...

Ben

I feel lore is important, so I don't get the sense that you're rambling. I don't think it always has to be followed to the letter, but more often than not I like to lean on it. Naming NPCs "Mike" or "Jerry" or other modern names often bug me, for example, but using a normal fantasy name on a Dunmer can be ok imho even if they don't traditionally name themselves like that. And I'm acutely aware that I've broken every rule I believe in before coming to those realizations. One of my first NPCs lived in a tomb and had dwemer boots with a +40 Spd constant effect, and scurried around, feet clomping, like a coffeine addict :] Luckily, that was remedied in the review process.

Ok, perhaps we can use both Reich Parkeep and Soluthis then? As much as I value lore, I must admit that the name we use has stuck in my head, and as so often happens with these things, I've grown rather fond of it. But making the dark elves refer to the town as Soluthis would be totally fine with me. I think there are many historical examples where conquerors renames towns, for instance many of the former German cities now within Poland's borders.

"Veranis Hall" sounds much better in my ears than "Verarchen Hall" though either one would have been fine, but I'm slightly happier that you also liked Veranis better. Any preliminary ideas on who or what Veranis is/was? Perhaps a historical figure of importance to the town?

Thankyou for the vote of confidence, I hope my future set turns out to be useable =) However I'd be much obligued for some concept art of a design, as I can't come up with an idea on how to model a tileable Redoran structure that would look good. I guess you could see it as a way to get Kragenmoore to look like you always pictured it, if that helps, hehe. The current collection of six original Redoran houses would be enough right now to get a decent level of variety in Reich Parkeep / Ebbedin, but if we aspire to create a huge Redoran town like Kragenmoore - which would be great to see - then those six houses won't cut it, we'd really need a tile set.

Quote:Originally posted by KuKulzA
you said Velothi Mts. region?

hmmm.... looks like there is some overlapping of sorts.... but I guess you guys had Redoran and Hlaalu going all along... hmm... whats left for me to use my own creativity on.... Telvanni, Indoril, Dres.... and others... like Dagoth, Velothi.... hmmm......

I haven't talked to Razorwing about what parts of your guys mod will overlap with mine.... and so I don't know what part I will probably have to work on alone or with my own mod team if people here are solely devoted to western Morrowind.... if not and they don't mind doing some of the east.... that would be interesting... convergence.... hehe

The way I think we'll initially set up the administration of the Silgrad Tower: Oblivion mod is by setting up so-called Region Stewards, who are modders in overall charge of a particular region. They'll function as independent main file admins, meaning submitted interiors and the like are sent to the appropriate steward. The advantage of that is that we can start modding from X number of spots and get a nice speedboost which wouldn't be possible if there was one single main file admin, which is how we usually run things. Deus was it for a long time, then me for a month, and now it's Quentin Fortune.

- Quentin Fortune and/or Valderon will handle the Silgrad Region, I think.
- I'll most likely handle Reich Parkeep and surrounding areas, if there aren't any objections.
- Rodan takes charge of the area north of us, if he wants to
- And Ben Vagara the Velothi Mountains and Redoran areas south of us
- Others will hopefully be interested in being Region Stewards for the other areas as time goes on

So, if you want to mod for or collaborate on the Velothi Mountains areas in Silgrad Tower: Oblivion you'll need to speak with Ben about that and then you two can set that up as you like