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+----- Thread: Left or right? Liberal or socialistic? (/Thread-Left-or-right-Liberal-or-socialistic)
- Mormacil - 11-26-2006
Read Das Kapital from Karl MArx, or at least study it a bit. He discribes how it can be done.
- DarkAsmodeous - 11-27-2006
Mormacil, so not allow them to draw you away from the topic of the debate and have you assaulted from all fronts.
Cogin, as with many things, it seems I need to repeat this "Disilussionment of a totalitarian state or through natural progression by the people in democracy" your claim just says it can't form so I'm right, not gonna fly here.
- Psychotic - 11-27-2006
Quote:Objection! A true communist state is not possible. There is no method to bring one about, excepting the spontaneous formation of one. Until men share and share alike, with no thought to themselves, without being forced to, a communist state will not exist.
Ah... but there is no such thing as spontaneity.
Everything we do in order to achieve a certain goal brings us closer to that goal. Something that looks like a spontaneous occurrence is actually the product of human goal seeking. If you slowly move towards the ideals of communism (even if it is unwittingly) the moment will come where forcing such a system would indeed not be necessary as it will appear "spontaneously". Spontaneity is only the quiet reaction of slow long term development.
I have to mention that there will never be such a thing as a communist STATE. Communism is a system that can only work (and is only meant to work) on a global scale, so unless we are talking about a state that is also of global proportions...
Again I will repeat that I do not stand behind the view that communism should be forced in any way, as the very act of forcing such a system destroys the purpose of the system. Communism is not (and was never) meant to be forced, because it requires conditions that greatly vary from the conditions required for the formation of capitalism... for example. While a system like capitalism was brought on by a sudden and violent revolution, communism requires everyone to make one same choice on their own free will.
If a decision is made in a modern democratic country, and if that decision is supported by an overwhelming majority then that decision is seen as the correct one. Communism requires every decision to conform to one single sense of logic that will dictate the goals of human kind. In other words, every human has to be a rational being and make only logical decisions. As human logic is based on mathematics (and is therefore universal) it is a base of thought that everyone can relate to.
To put it simply communism requires (more than anything else) every human to set one single goal for themselves and humanity... but all humans have to set this one universal goal on their own free will.
You could say that communism is like merging human kind into a single consciousness.
If it is possible for humanity to achieve such a goal is another discussion altogether and I would go too far off topic if I were to discuss it here.
- DarkAsmodeous - 11-27-2006
Psychotic, each and every individual would not need to be reached, so long as enough for the society to function in an actual working manner are turned, the childen shall be raised in such a world and within a few generations we would be set.
I agree with most of what you said though.
- Cogidubnus - 11-27-2006
Quote:Mormacil, so not allow them to draw you away from the topic of the debate and have you assaulted from all fronts.Them? Heh. I am Them, now. How...quaint.
So, in conclusion, this system must be reached by universal human consensus to not only adhere to such a system, but to stick with it and not deviate when times get tough. As soon as mankind can sacrifice his good for the good of his neighbor, I will say such a system might work. But, unfortunately, you state a reason for man to do this (disillusionment, or, realization that it is better), but no path to it (how man is to become this paragon of virtue). Again, as soon as man is so good that every single one cares more for his neighbor than himself, such a state would be possible and, meritous.
But, as long as man is what he is, the neverending symphony of infamy, deceit, duplicity, tyranny, and subterfuge, it will not work. The communal mind state, even if gotten to, would have to become violent or repressive if even one person did not toe the line. Not only this, but, all deviation would be seen as a act against humanity, a crime aganst your neighbor...you can see where that goes.
It works if man is perfect, and every single person wants the same thing. That is not a description of humanity. It is a description of some people, some virtuous folk, but it does not speak of man. Take a look at the world, and then tell me that man is this thing described.
Man can reach such a state, you say? Tell me, then. How? What is your remedy?
- DarkAsmodeous - 11-27-2006
Cogin, your speculation that it takes every man loving his neighbor more than himself that is unsubstantiated.
- Cogidubnus - 11-27-2006
It is not. How, indeed, is a state in which every man is to care about the other more than himself, indeed, care about the group more than himself, to be otherwise described? Love, dear sir, has many meaning, but in this I mean:
'There is no greater love than this, that a man would lay down his life for another'
Do not tell me, sir, that it does not take sacrifice by every individual to make such a system work. The tabs will be paid - some will work and not get what they deserve, and some will work less and get more. There is work that is harder than other work - therefore, there is work that is inherently worth more, but under the communal state, given the same. The society you espouse states that all men do this willingly, for the good of his fellow man. Self-Sacrifice means you value the other more than yourself - I think that this can also be a definition of love.
It takes sacrifice to adhere, despite your personal feelings, to the belief that the good of all is greater than your good. It takes belief that your good is made by the good of everyone.
If even one person does not feel this way, the system will not work as it should. They deviants would be repressed, or they would be eliminated. Ideologically, if one person does not feel that way, then, the system does not adhere to it's own belief.
- Mormacil - 11-27-2006
To me communism isn't about having nthe same property, but doing waht you want for a living. Since nothing is over or underpaid you can do waht your heart wants you too. That is communism to me.
- TheImperialDragon - 11-27-2006
A society where everyone had equal rights would be nice, some may think that already's in place, and if that is so, then wake up and look around you. :O
Makes me think back to when I was 8-ish years old. How the world seemed like such a big friendly place back then... Unfortunately, I don't think it exists in this time we live in, and it may not be the worst of it, from what I see,
- Mormacil - 11-27-2006
America was awsome, full of heroes. G.I.Joes were heroes
People were friendly...