 Creatures (thread #2) |
Harikari
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So are you going to pull off the back "scales" by a texture trick or making them into the actual model?
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2006.03.15 15:34 |
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cryonaut
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scales? i'm sorry... not sure what you're talking about there... you
mean the little inconsistancies in the armor? parts of the plating that
spike up a little? that will be added to the model.
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2006.03.15 15:39 |
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Harikari
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I was talking about the pieces that came up in the concept art, how the
Nix was armored sorta, and reddish brown ? Remember? You brought it up
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2006.03.15 15:42 |
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cryonaut
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I THINK we're talking about the same thing......
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2006.03.15 16:01 |
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noremorse
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Maybe he is talking about this post, where you bring up the idea of modelling the hound to look different than the MW version. The concept link no longer works.
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2006.03.15 18:21 |
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cryonaut
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but that's what I'm talking about... the two different models would be
one for the standard nix which would look like the original Morrowind
game nix, and one for the rogue nix which would look like the concept
nix, ie. a bigger upper body, amped up armored plating, etc...
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2006.03.15 23:34 |
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cryonaut
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Just a copy from the thread I'm doing in the ES forum:
did a quick preliminary texture test yesterday. here's how it came out:
http://www.morrowind-mods.org/tes4-v_wor...x-progress4.jpg
it helps to show me what definately still needs to be modeled in, and
what I can get away with defining in the textures instead of having to
model. this model right now is kind of a hybrid of both types of nix.
since I've decided on making both types, i've got some alterations
ahead which should be fun. i'm going to have to make geometry for his
eyes, take away the "wings" on his forearms, and raise up his hind
quarters a little bit, make his shoulder plating more detailed, make
defined joints on his limbs, and make his claws more detailed. then I
can alter him from there to be the rogue nix, which will require adding
the arm wings/spikes back on to him, making his upper body much bigger
and higher, and amping up his armored plaing a bunch. there's also
still the matter of his front legs/arms, and figuring out how I will
end up configuring them....
so my main question right now is - what should his front legs look
like? should I ditch the idea of the tendon coming from his head
plating to his elbow? should I make his shoulders bigger to make up for
it?
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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by cryonaut: 2006.03.17 09:52.
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2006.03.17 09:51 |
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Harikari
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Just nix (hehehe) the tendons and keep the leg thin
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2006.03.17 15:00 |
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cryonaut
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Just an update - took a break from modeling for a while to actually
PLAY Oblivion and mess around with the CS a little to get used to it...
I love the organization of the items in the CS and the way you can
spawn multiple copies of objects and creatures in the leveled lists!
It'll be SO now easy to spawn packs of nix hounds, herds of guar,
clusters of mudcrabs, flocks of cliffracers, and schools of
slaughterfish!
Anyway, I'll get back to work on modeling soon... I'm experimenting
with different programs right now. I'm trying to learn ZBrush because
it is a LOT better for modeling organic things then 3ds Max is. I think
I will use 3ds Max for insects because they're more mechanical in
nature, and then ZBrush for reptiles and other more "fleshy" creatures.
I'm also going to try to learn SoftImage.
What does everyone think about the mudcrabs that come with Oblivion? I
think they're neat, but that the Vvardenfell mudcrabs should be
increased in size a bit and retextured to be darker and less green.
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2006.03.27 17:42 |
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cryonaut
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Okay if there's no objection this is what I'm going to do with the mudcrabs:
- Vvardenfell mudcrab: 20% larger than Cyrodiil mudcrab, brownish grey in color
- King mudcrab: 70% larger than Cyrodiil mudcrabs, yellowish brown in color
- Titan mudcrab: More than twice as big as Cyrodiil mudcrabs, very
rare, and dark rusty orange in color (like the titan mudcrabs from
Morrowind Advanced by Bethesda developer Wormgod)
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2006.03.29 12:43 |
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Harikari
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Sounds good to me. Oh, could you put a pick up of the Cyrrodil crab? I havent seen it yet.
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2006.03.29 14:06 |
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Harikari
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Interesting. I notice it doesnt have the thick brown shell on its back
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2006.03.29 22:31 |
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KuKulzA
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it looks good... but doesn't look like the good old regular mud-crab 
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2006.03.30 00:46 |
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cryonaut
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yea they've given lots of things a pretty big overhaul. I think the
mudcrabs are one of the biggest changes, and the slaughterfish look the
most like their Morrowind counterparts.
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2006.03.30 01:00 |
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Harikari
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Do you have a pic of them?
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2006.03.30 01:15 |
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cryonaut
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I could take one but there's not much point. they look just like the
Morrowind slaughterfish only higher quality and better animations.
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2006.03.30 01:18 |
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Vrenir
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So do we want a local varient of crab that looks Morrowindish or just a
retexture of the Oblivion one? Perhaps use Oblivion crabs until we get
all the other major creatures done, and then see about replacing them
with our own version? |
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2006.03.30 03:18 |
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cryonaut
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I personally like the new crabs better and am totally into just having
retextured versions of those. I think the old crabs are to dinky
looking with their stumpy overly-simply legs, and no pincers.
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2006.03.30 16:40 |
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KuKulzA
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... 
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2006.03.30 22:04 |
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Harikari
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I like the old mudcrabs....
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2006.03.30 22:45 |
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KuKulzA
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the new are cool too... but I would hate to scrap the old... plus there is probably a reason to be thought of
why are those mudcrabs on Vvardenfell? why not all over Tamriel?
maybe there are living fossils so to speak
and so there are populations of them on Vvardenfell, unique... cool 
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2006.03.30 22:48 |
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cryonaut
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"but I would hate to scrap the old... plus there is probably a reason
to be thought of why are those mudcrabs on Vvardenfell? why not all
over Tamriel? maybe there are living fossils so to speak and so there
are populations of them on Vvardenfell"
I don't think it's about that at all... I think the mudcrabs in
Morrowind were something bethesda just didn't put much care into, and
didn't think they'd be too important, so they just made some dinky
looking thing... then with oblivion they realized just how bad the
original mudcrabs were and said, "hey, let's use this chance to make
mudcrabs that don't suck!", and therefore redesigned them. I think
lore-wise a mudcrab is a mudcrab is a mudcrab... they just had a
makeover for oblivion. it's just like the daedra in oblivion... there
wouldn't be different types of daedra in Cyrodiil than in
vvardenfell... they just got a makeover for oblivion.
maybe there's something i'm not seeing though... I mean, can anyone
explain to me what there is to like about the old mudcrabs compared to
the new? what in the world could possibly be better about them? the old
ones were not animated well (their movement looked more mechanical than
organic), they had NO joints in their legs, no front pincers... they
just seemed more like rocks that could move instead of actual crabs...
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2006.03.31 00:47 |
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Harikari
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They were just cool. They had this old man look to them that made them interesting to look at
Though Ill agree they werent very crablike
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2006.03.31 01:34 |
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Vrenir
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The only thing that I like better about the old ones were the giant
manibles on the front, sort of like a single large pincer with a mouth
in the middle. It was admitedly more insectile than crab-like, but I
thought that feature was kind of distinctive and interesting. |
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2006.03.31 02:51 |
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cryonaut
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Maybe there could be a way of mixing the improvements of the new with
the favorite traits of the old? perhaps making them look almost like
the new versions, but with slightly shorter legs, no front claws, and
giant mandibles instead? also, the new ones hop at you when they attack
- how do you guys feel about that that?
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2006.03.31 12:48 |
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Harikari
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The hopping bit sounds weird, but yeah sounds good
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2006.03.31 13:50 |
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KuKulzA
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I'd like to see both.... maybe a retexture of the new and the return of
the old... but maybe the old can blend into its environment or
something... or if you decide to lie around in a tidal pool for long
enough you might get swarmed |
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2006.04.01 00:31 |
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cryonaut
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Haven't been too active here lately but I think that's because most of
the details of our creatures are pretty much ironed out at this point
and all that's left is the modeling, texturing, and figuring out how to
get them INTO Oblivion...
One note though I do want to make though is on "Sky Lamps". Tamriel
Rebuilt sketched these to be like carnivorous, more dangerous
mutated-looking versions of Netches, but I recently have been doing
some research online and it turns out that the term "Sky Lamp" is just
a slang term for the "Will-o-the-Wisp", which are already in Oblivion
(magic floating orbs of light). So forget those guys. 
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2006.04.15 06:25 |
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KuKulzA
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yeah, thanks for the update 
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2006.04.15 13:20 |
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zuldazug
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good work on this (damn) nix hound 
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2006.04.26 10:34 |
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batman
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oh hey, speking of which, on the topic of gettign our nix-houd in-game,
I was thinking that (if possible) we should have cryonaut create the
obj to be the same size as the wolf.
That way we can simply export the wolf .obj in nifskope and import the nix-hound one, and BAM we've got our in game nix hound!
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2006.04.26 16:16 |
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KuKulzA
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| quote: |
Originally posted by batman
oh hey, speking of which, on the topic of gettign our nix-houd in-game,
I was thinking that (if possible) we should have cryonaut create the
obj to be the same size as the wolf.
That way we can simply export the wolf .obj in nifskope and import the nix-hound one, and BAM we've got our in game nix hound! |
and that would be a most sensible apporach, or clannfear might work
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2006.04.27 03:40 |
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batman
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clannfear would be better for use with the gaur
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2006.04.27 05:42 |
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Harikari
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I second that
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2006.04.29 05:41 |
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nerbod
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and I third that 
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is what a heightmap looks like, this is what it does when it catches
hold of you, it's eating me alive and very soon now it will kill me.
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2006.05.02 10:29 |
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cryonaut
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It really frustrates me that I am in school STUDYING to get into the
game industry, and yet I don't understand what you guys mean.
So help me out here... what does this obj/nifskope all mean? I mean...
I thought nifskope just had to do with texturing... in which case how
would the Oblivion wolf have anything to do with that?
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2006.05.03 14:38 |
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X23
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I like the new mudcrabs. They remind me of the tectites from Ocarina of Time.
You can have the old mudcrab, and just call it a giant mudcrab or something, and up its stats.
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2006.05.03 21:30 |
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Harikari
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| quote: |
Originally posted by cryonaut
in which case how would the Oblivion wolf have anything to do with that? |
I don't know what the hell they are talking about, but we were saying
you could retexture the wolf to make something... I forgot what
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2006.05.03 21:57 |
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raz
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One question always is interest for me: how does SiltStraider move? He
jumps as if flea (he looks like it) or simply walks (must be very slow)?
Does anybody knows?
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2006.05.03 22:44 |
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Vrenir
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I think that Silt Striders walk, hence the term "strider." Also, I
would think that jumping would tend to make them bad at carrying
things, all the luggage flying about and such. It why have large
leg-spans and walk at a decent pace, then they become ideal for
transportation as shown in the game. |
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2006.05.03 22:56 |
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Harikari
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I always thought of them like a snail... sliding... but that doesnt work for something with legs...
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2006.05.04 01:22 |
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batman
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| quote: |
Originally posted by cryonaut
It really frustrates me that I am in school STUDYING to get into the
game industry, and yet I don't understand what you guys mean.
So help me out here... what does this obj/nifskope all mean? I mean...
I thought nifskope just had to do with texturing... in which case how
would the Oblivion wolf have anything to do with that? |
Alright, explanation time! I'll start at the begining: a dot-O-B-J file
is a 3d model file type that is fairly common and widely compatible
with al kinds of 3d modeling programs. Now then, nifskope is a program
that edits/creates dot-N-I-F files, like the kind used by Oblivion.
A .nif file contains the 3d model, the texture or the textures location
(the latter is the case in Oblivion), as well as bone, node, and Havok
data, plus even more! So to create from scratch is now quite difficult
(especially with no properly working exporter!).
Nifskope will allow you to edit existing .nifs of course, but we have
no idea how to change things for physics enablement or most of the
other data. So we are limited to importing/exporting the 3d model of
the .nif, which brings us back to .obj files...
You can use nifskope to assign any model to any .nif but for it to
work/move/look right, the new model will have to be of roughly the same
size and shape as the old.
I figured that the wolf animations/size/phyics/shape were close enough
to a nix hound that an .obj replacement would be just fine.
(though i'm sure that there will still be kiinks to get worked out) The same goes for the guar/clanfear methinks...
(edit: Silt Striders walk, Vrenir called it 
Silt: comes from river bottems, foyada = fireriver. Strider: walking)
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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by batman: 2006.05.04 02:06.
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2006.05.04 02:04 |
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cryonaut
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Wait you're saying you can use Nifskope to reaplce the 3d model within
a nif file, while still keeping the physics info from the previous
model??? Are you sure that's possible? Because I thought the only thing
Nifskope allowed you to replace on a nif file was the textures it
uses...... If it can also replace the actual 3d model with a 3d Studio
.obj than that would defiantely be something awesome... but would the
animations be stored in the obj file (is that possible?) or would the
animations be stored in the nif? Because I think the nix hound would
need different animations than a wolf to look right, especially
considering it'd probably be rigged differently anyway... Is there any
kind of online guide or wiki on all of this someone could point me to,
as well as a list of information the modding community has already put
together on what we official DO know how to do or are capable of at
this point? Do we know anything about how to animate creatures for
Oblivion yet?
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2006.05.04 07:46 |
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batman
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Registration Date: 2005.11.26
Posts: 1,116
Location: i'm the goddamn batman. where do you think?
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Yes, you can replace the model and keep the physics intact, that data
is stored in the .nif. However the siza and shape must be very, very
similar to the original. Don't believe me? download it yourself and
take a look. Not only is there a destination line for the texture, but
an option to both import and export .obj files into the .nif.
How and where the animations are stored, I don't know, but I suspect
that any replacement would use the same animations, as you can see the
nodes and bones in nifskope, and as far as I know .obj files don't
support animation. as for how to learn about all this, do some reading
over on the General Construction Set area of the official forums and
read through the archives, with another window open to the CS Wiki.
Edit: Also, I see nothing wrong with using the wolf animations for a
nix-hound, could you elaborate further? I thought that by using the
.obj replacement method we might have easy nixhounds and possibly easy
guars (clannfear)...
__________________
"What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?"
"The ignorant say more than they know, the wise know more than they say"
This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by batman: 2006.05.04 20:33.
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2006.05.04 20:31 |
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batman
Marquess
Registration Date: 2005.11.26
Posts: 1,116
Location: i'm the goddamn batman. where do you think?
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I'm honestly not sure what the Civ4 exporter has to do with the
conversation (we don't need to export new models, we stated in the
earlier part of the thread that we'd be editing existing .nifs using
nifskope), but you were able to impart some valuable info!
I'm glad you were able to break-down and expand upon what I said.
Specificlly what is contained within the .nif files and that the
animations are in fact contained within the .nifs.
So now it's down to execution and testing! Cryonuat if you're willing,
we'll need to export the wolf .obj in nifskope and open it 3dsmx side
by side with the nix-hound, then resize the nix-hound so that it's hard
points (back-bone, head, jonts, etc) are in the same position as the
wolf's. Then export the obj from 3dsmx and import it in nifskope. Also
you'll need the texure (mesh-only or otherwise) to be associated with
the .obj in nifskope as well!
__________________
"What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?"
"The ignorant say more than they know, the wise know more than they say"
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2006.05.06 03:00 |
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cryonaut
Seigneur
Registration Date: 2006.03.01
Posts: 226
Location: Florida
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Due to the nix hound having mandibles and a slightly different
head/neck structure, I worry about the wolf's animations not being
usable with it... but we can give it a try I suppose... I will get to
work on completing the nix obj, or at least getting it to a point where
I am somewhat satisfied with it. the main thing I dislike about it
right now is the textures. i'm having a really hard time getting decent
textures for it.
__________________
- Brett the Cryonaut
Head of creature-development for TES4: Vvardenfell
- & -
Owner / Maintainer of Morrowind-Mods.org
http://www.morrowind-mods.org
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2006.05.06 20:47 |
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raggidman
Prince
Registration Date: 2006.01.06
Posts: 3,565
Location: where my heart is
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The crabs new look interesting, but where do they come from?
So maybe these new crabs are either:
imports? - that could be a clue in a new quest - as in from where do the new crabs come? or
mutations? The blight is dead? Maybe, but what is its legacy?
Another quest - perhaps connected with the problems that certain beings
are due to deliver to the delightful Fyr Family?
Hey, and if they are mutations, maybe they could be land crabs?
__________________
Because
loyalty is not to be spoken of and honour is to be endured. Whilst
courage is to be survived. These virtues belong to silence.
Steven Erikson.
But, if one man does nothing can he be said to be good? raggidman
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2006.05.08 23:40 |
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raggidman
Prince
Registration Date: 2006.01.06
Posts: 3,565
Location: where my heart is
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Tried to edit this into my last post, but I can no longer access my own posts to edit them?? Ah, well, needs must.
RE animating Guar, I would have assumed that you would want to do that
separately from a wolf or a nix hound because they have very different
rear feet - which are huge in proportion, but then again maybe the
'endearing' awkwardness of the Guar's walk was created by applying the
same movement used by other animals. Worth lookng at closely.
The number of differnet movement structures might depend on just how
distinctive you want your creatures' movement to be vs mem and
processing requirements. You should not be surprised to see that
creatures in many games use the same movements.
__________________
Because loyalty is not to be
spoken of and honour is to be endured. Whilst courage is to be
survived. These virtues belong to silence.
Steven Erikson.
But, if one man does nothing can he be said to be good? raggidman
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2006.05.13 01:12 |
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raz
Swordsman
Registration Date: 2006.04.24
Posts: 18
Location: Russia
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This is method of creating animation for Oblivion in 3dsMAX and Civ4MaxTools7 plugin. It work, it work
3dsMAX's part:
1. Make your model, of course
2. Make bones for that model. I think all of you know how to do that
3. Add Skin modifier to model and add bones to it.
4. Make sequence of keyframe animations. For example: 1-60 frames - Idle animation, 61-100 - ForwardAttackPower, 101-... etc.
5. Create Dummy helper. It should covers all model. The top level of bones should be children of this Dummy.
6. Utilities->MAXScript->Civilization4 Animation Manager. Panel Actors - click Add and select Dummy helper. Panel Active Sequence->Active Sequence Name
type the fixed names of sequences (Idle, ForwardAttackPower, Forward,
FastForward etc). Create individual sequence for all kinds of animation
(Append New Sequence to create new). Don't forget to set Start Frame and End Frame for all sequences.
7. Then click More... button on top of Utilities panel. Select CivilizationIV MAX Plugin and click Edit Process Script. In Script Editor add this plugins: Create
ABV, Remove Hidden Objects Plug-in, Remove Tagged Objects Plug-in,
Scene Graph Optimization, Stripify Geometry, Skin Analyzer. Save and Ok.
8. Hide all bones.
9. File->Export...->Save as type: CivilizationIV (*.KF, *.NIF, *.NIF). Select Process Script: Default Process Script and File Export Script: Multiple KF Export with NIF.
CS's part:
Move new NIF and KF files to Oblivion/Data/Meshes/Creature/*Name of creature* directory. In CS select New on creature field. Add NIF file. If Old Version: old skin info warning will appears click Yes to all. That's all. Switch to Animation panels and see your animation.
Thanks to niftools.sourceforge.net, www.civfanatics.net and Civ4 MaxTools tutorial
I hope that information will help somebody
. And sorry for my language. I think I made a terible quantity of mistakes
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If you want you may look on my first animation. Unrar it to Oblivion folder and fasttravel to ImperialCity Market District.
__________________
Sorry for my English.
This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by raz: 2006.05.16 21:44.
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2006.05.16 21:43 |
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Axen
Marquess
Registration Date: 2005.11.19
Posts: 1,486
Location: A place.
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Does tweening (which makes animation transitions smoother, like when going from running to idle) work?
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2006.05.16 22:54 |
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raz
Swordsman
Registration Date: 2006.04.24
Posts: 18
Location: Russia
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| quote: |
| Does tweening work? |
I don't know, because I doh't have model with few types of animation to test it. But I think "Yes".
__________________
Sorry for my English.
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2006.05.17 00:17 |
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