| Poll: Should we have a separate forum section for Vivec City |
| Oh Yeah, its sounds like a great idea! |
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16 |
84.21% |
| Uh, well good idea, but maybe later on |
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2 |
10.53% |
| No, what the heck are ya talkin' about? |
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5.26% |
| Total: |
19 Votes |
100% |
 should we have a new Vivec City forum section? |
KuKulzA
King
Registration Date: 2005.09.07
Posts: 7,619
Location: USA / Taiwan
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 should we have a new Vivec City forum section? |
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should we have a separate forum section JUST for Vivec city?
I think we should... cause each canton is basically like a city...
and we're probably gonna have to put it, or sections of it into
different city-wordlspaces... this is going to be THE toughest city to
create and could be a project in itself. every canton has its share of
quests and quests from factions and every place needs to be detailed
and lively. Even Vivec's Palance.. it has a labrynth beneath it, and we
need to make it a REAL maze not the pitiful canal it was in TES3...
there's lots to do and needs to ALL be planned out for it to run
smooth... you all agree?
one man should not be allowed to claim Vivec city... maybe allowed one
canton, cause its like possibly the largest city in Morrowind, let
alone on Vvardenfell... and no cities in Vvardenfell come close to
Vivec City
depending on our mod's needs and the opinions of the team, Grand Yurt
folks will decide if and when we'll make one. I am of the opinion we
should, but you guys' opinions mean a lot, and I mean it.. I'll give
about a week for voters to keep things somewhat efficient and expedient
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2007.04.09 03:18 |
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Dave_91
Marquess
Registration Date: 2006.07.12
Posts: 1,371
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Yes I think that would be a good idea. Maybe we could have claims for
each canton, upper and lower sections. Then claims for exterior canton
building, and general city modding, because the version in the mod will
be quite more populated and active that Morrowind's version. I think
the more planning and time taken, the better it will turn out, and I
think sharing our ideas, thoughts and plans in a more organized forum
section, will help a lot.
I say go for it.
The only reason I wouldn't want this, is because I feel we don't have
enough resources avaible to start work with. But even then- Vivec won't
build itself overnight, I imagine it to take some time to build and
perfect, and we should really be thinking about plans, since it's THE
biggest city, and probably where players will visit most often.
Another reason why we should. 
This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Dave_91: 2007.04.09 03:48.
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2007.04.09 03:45 |
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Seniosh
Councilor
Registration Date: 2007.01.23
Posts: 1,424
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I agree, no mortal could mod Vvardenfell alone. The sheer work involved in doing even one Canton is mind blowing.
you guys could go ST style and have every interior as a separate claim
(instead of having one guy create an entire Canton), but barring that,
splitting the cantons would probably make the work possible, if hard.
The cantons will take a long, long, time. Fortunately, the velothi
tileset is done, so you can do all the interiors. Of course it'll need
to be expanded to make the mage and fighters guilds, but for regular
houses and shops it'll be fine
Aside from the tileset, what resources do you need? You've got tons of
misc dunmer items, beds, chairs, tables, book cases, books, food,
plates, ect. Everything you need to make a good interior. Lack of
resources shouldn't be much of a problem, so once it's organized you
can get right to planning the interior claims.
The real benefit of a Vivec section is the organization, which is what
will be required. But I think that whatever you guys do it'll turn out
right. Can't wait to visit Vivec!
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2007.04.09 04:10 |
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timmay
Warder
Registration Date: 2007.04.03
Posts: 30
Location: Denton, Texas
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sounds good, the only part I'm really dreading about the Vivec cantons
is all the sewer systems below them. they always confused me a lot in
Morrowind.
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2007.04.09 04:53 |
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Moryal
First Knight
Registration Date: 2007.03.02
Posts: 122
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By the sounds of the plans, they'll be much more confusing this time around!
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2007.04.09 06:15 |
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KuKulzA
King
Registration Date: 2005.09.07
Posts: 7,619
Location: USA / Taiwan
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Moryal
By the sounds of the plans, they'll be much more confusing this time around! |
when the NPCs said that 'its confusing' this time it WILL be...
its a nice place to get lost... and as long as you're in a place
guarded by Ordinators you won't get mugged... so don't go to the canal
slums or the sewers unless you're looking for trouble 
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2007.04.09 06:20 |
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Dave_91
Marquess
Registration Date: 2006.07.12
Posts: 1,371
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If the player will actually be able get mugged or attacked somehow by
random NPC's, I think that would really add immersion and atmosphere.
Sounds great. |
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2007.04.09 13:25 |
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IAMTHEEMPEROR
Archduke
Registration Date: 2006.07.04
Posts: 1,948
Location: New England
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What do you mean by have each canton in it's own worldspace? How will
we even get the city into one worldspace? Oh, I have an idea, we could
make a border region around the city similar to what happens at the
borders of Cyrodiil, then you can make a gate on the main bridge with a
big door that will take you into the city.
Easiest Canton=The Palace
Hardest Canton=Foreign Quarter
That's about right, right?
There was also this great mod that made a lively dock system down under
the cantons over the water, I think we shouldmake something like that
too. I forgot the name and I don't know where it is, but I can find it
when I get home. That mod also had muggers that came out at night.
Will the moon be counted as a separate claim or is it part of the temple?
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2007.04.09 20:05 |
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KuKulzA
King
Registration Date: 2005.09.07
Posts: 7,619
Location: USA / Taiwan
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not sure how the worldspace thing will work out but thats one thing that needs to be figured out
as for Lie Rock and the High Fane...
there will be changes... in 'real life' the High Fane should have a big
courtyard enough for hundreds to come and pray daily. Now of course we
can't do that big, but the High Fane will be a little expanded to
accommodate the influx of NPCs.... and Lie Rock, it was the Inquisitor
base, it needs more sophisticated prisons and instruments of torture
and records and a place where the belongings of prisoners are kept
etc.... so that it has a lot more depth
not sure if they will be separate claims as of yet, but I am thinking probably not
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2007.04.09 20:45 |
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IAMTHEEMPEROR
Archduke
Registration Date: 2006.07.04
Posts: 1,948
Location: New England
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What if you have a high enough bounty, and you get sent up to the Moon
rather than the normal prison. And there is no release bed, only a way
to escape. Or you can be tortured and then are free to go.
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Imagination is more important than knowledge.
For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world.
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2007.04.09 22:46 |
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Hmm... sepereate world spaces? whats up with that? They need to be
Morrowind style I think, and for the muggers/thiefs we could use the
Highwayman script from generic Oblivion!
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2007.04.09 23:10 |
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timmay
Warder
Registration Date: 2007.04.03
Posts: 30
Location: Denton, Texas
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I don't think I quite understand what "separate worldspaces"
means...please explain for an ignorant timmay plz lol...and I was gonna
suggest the highwayman script thing, good idea
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The Elder Scrolls IV: Vvardenfell - Team Member
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2007.04.09 23:23 |
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Hehe, I think they are considering what BETH did with the cities in
Cyrodiil, that was to cut down on FPS hit, but as we know, Vvardenfell
is not anywhere near as forested as Cyrodiil so most of those cluttered
grass/trees don't hit the FPS as hard.
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The rider in black is always watching......
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2007.04.09 23:27 |
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IAMTHEEMPEROR
Archduke
Registration Date: 2006.07.04
Posts: 1,948
Location: New England
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A worldspace is an exterior world, which means it always has weather
and landscape features. In Morrowind, there was only one world, but
Oblivion has the ability to make more. KuKulzA was suggesting that we
make a separate worldspace for Vivec, meaning it won't be a part of the
main Vvardenfell worldspace but rather just a branch of it. It is
separate, so it won't be laggy and cause issues. That's also what
Oblivion did with all of it's main cities. KuKulzA also suggested that
each canton get it's own worldspace as well, which may make it easier
to manage, but finding an effective way to make it so you can't walk to
Vivec from the main world is difficult, as it has no walls to separate
it, it's all open. We need to find a way so you can't enter it by just
swimming up to it, and we need to find spmewhere to put a door that
will take you to the Vivec world.
__________________
Imagination is more important than knowledge.
For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world.
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2007.04.09 23:30 |
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timmay
Warder
Registration Date: 2007.04.03
Posts: 30
Location: Denton, Texas
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I see, so it was like making the cities interiors basically
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2007.04.09 23:30 |
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KuKulzA
King
Registration Date: 2005.09.07
Posts: 7,619
Location: USA / Taiwan
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what you guys may not realize is that when you have gondolas moving in
the canals, and 30+ NPCs doing things like ordinators patorlling,
pilgrims praying, traders traveling in the city, etc. thats a HUGE FPS
hit... esp. for those who's PCs aren't super duper and heavy duty
if we want a real Vivec City, at least close to real... a close to real
Vivec City isn't a giant quiet place, its a giant bustling place where
each Canton IS a city... its possibly the busiest and biggest city in
Morrowind!
I my opinion, without worldspaces we'll be screwed. unless you guys
have convincing evidence we won't then I stand by that... either way,
we're gonna need to divide up the city to complete it, one man claiming
it is not feasible |
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2007.04.10 02:24 |
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IAMTHEEMPEROR
Archduke
Registration Date: 2006.07.04
Posts: 1,948
Location: New England
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| quote: |
Originally posted by timmay
I see, so it was like making the cities interiors basically |
Kinda, just with landscape settings. They also get their own menu for
cells in the CS. It's pretty much an exterior that is separate from a
main one.
__________________
Imagination is more important than knowledge.
For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world.
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2007.04.10 02:30 |
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Seniosh
Councilor
Registration Date: 2007.01.23
Posts: 1,424
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Well, the option that would make everyone happy would be to release a
special ESP that enables an open Vivec, for those who run $2000
computers (not me!)
Unfortunately, this might require a bit of work, but it would satisfy everyone.
Having Vivec be it's own worldspace should work fine, although on
second thoughts i'm not sure it's neccessary. Listen to my reasoning
and then tell me if i'm just crazy.
you said that in the exterior of Vivec, there will be many NPCs
patrolling, wandering, ect. But here's the thing. That's ALL it is. all
the game has to render is the NPCs patrolling, and the exteriors of the
cantons. It doesn't have to render 100 different houses, just 9(?)
cantons. And though they are big, I don't think it'll be a huge
graphical hit, especially as there are not really any flora to generate.
Compared to Reich Parkeep/Soluthis, Vivec is easy on the computer,
because all of the houses and shops will be inside the cantons, safely
behind a loading screen. If a computer can handle running through
soluthis, rendering 40 houses, numerous trees, and NPCs, it should have
no problem rendering 9 cantons, no flora, and a bunch of NPCs.
This is assuming of course that the cantons aren't going to be open,
and that they will be the same as Morrowind. If you guys want open
cantons, that'll be insane enough that my computer will explode. But if
you guys are going to have each canton safely separate from the
exterior and the other cantons, you shouldn't need a separate
worldspace for Vivec
__________________
Leader of the Morag Tong Hail Mephala
I do work sometimes - I swear!
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2007.04.10 02:39 |
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timmay
Warder
Registration Date: 2007.04.03
Posts: 30
Location: Denton, Texas
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I think the main goal we should shoot for is Vivec being as close as we
can get it to how it is in Morrowind, as you really can't change much
on a city that size in 6 years (realistically). But we also don't want
to sacrifice the fans of the mod that want to play it but can't. We'll
just have to find a way. Now know this, I have an amazing computer that
I built, but I want to defend those that don't and I would strive for
them to try and have just as good of an experience as everyone else.
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The Elder Scrolls IV: Vvardenfell - Team Member
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2007.04.10 03:26 |
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Dave_91
Marquess
Registration Date: 2006.07.12
Posts: 1,371
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That's a fair point about how it won't change that
much in 6 years, but remember, we're not remaking Vvardenfell, we're
making it to what it should have been like (right?). So we'll probably
be referring to the original concepts for the most part- and if you
look at early alpha/beta screens of the original game of Vivec, and the
concepts, you can see quite a difference between those, and the city
you see in Morrowind. (I do anyway.
)
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2007.04.10 03:30 |
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IAMTHEEMPEROR
Archduke
Registration Date: 2006.07.04
Posts: 1,948
Location: New England
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As in a few open-roofed cantons, Dres Canton, a Market Canton,
and.....what else should there be? How about a hidden Dagoth area?
__________________
Imagination is more important than knowledge.
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2007.04.10 03:35 |
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SACarrow
The Voice Guy
Registration Date: 2006.04.26
Posts: 1,604
Location: Tampa, Florida, USA
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Probably being a moron here, but I thought that Dres really had no
presence on Vvardenfell. Or would this be part of "feasting on the
carcass of ruined Indoril"? 
Steve
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2007.04.10 03:47 |
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Dave_91
Marquess
Registration Date: 2006.07.12
Posts: 1,371
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There was a map plan in KuKulzA's Vivec City thread.
| quote: |
(From the claims thread)
Currently planned cantons:
-Foreign Quarter/Market Canton
-Arena Canton
-Redoran Compound
-Telvanni Compound
-Hlaalu Compound
-Dres Compound
-Indoril Compound
-St. Olms Canton
-St. Delyn Canton
-Temple Compound
-Ministry of Truth
-Steam Gate
-Palace of Vivec |
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2007.04.10 03:52 |
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IAMTHEEMPEROR
Archduke
Registration Date: 2006.07.04
Posts: 1,948
Location: New England
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gonna be very impressive then, Can't wait to see it!
__________________
Imagination is more important than knowledge.
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2007.04.10 04:00 |
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cruxvader
Seigneur
Registration Date: 2006.05.17
Posts: 206
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2007.04.10 08:28 |
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KuKulzA
King
Registration Date: 2005.09.07
Posts: 7,619
Location: USA / Taiwan
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Seniosh
This is assuming of course that the cantons aren't going to be open,
and that they will be the same as Morrowind. If you guys want open
cantons, that'll be insane enough that my computer will explode. But if
you guys are going to have each canton safely separate from the
exterior and the other cantons, you shouldn't need a separate
worldspace for Vivec |
Open? no... but the top tiers might be "open" but not really, like have
an open roof but not actually open, in its own thing set off gy giant
gates... so no, the ONLY FPS his is the fact that there'll be a few
canal-homes, homes on the bridges, and LOTs of NPCs, walking, on
gondolas, etc.... to me thats a lot.. considering my computer doesn't
get along with Oblivion at all |
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2007.04.10 19:46 |
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Lightwave
First Knight
Registration Date: 2006.11.18
Posts: 156
Location: Cymru [Wales]
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Hmm, I'm not totally sold on the idea of putting all the cantons in
separate worldspaces. When Beth did this with TESIV, each child
worldspace was enclosed by a wall and they really did not intend any
player to be able to look over it. When you do, all you see is how
barren and empty the static-less surrounding cells and LOD terrain
looks (e.g. these shots
I took of the IC to help with lining up the walls for the TES3 Dawn Of
Oblivion project show the issue, think my darned stupid ISP web-hosting
is down, yet again though 
). Since you're high up and in an open air environment in a Canton,
you'd have to start repopulating the surrounding landscape terrain with
some statics (trees, rocks) and then you're back up to the same poly
count, but with more work and less seamlessness between the
environments. It would be especially nice to be able to stand near the
top of one of the cantons and see the surrounding Ascadian Isles as the
sun sets, like one could do in TES3.
Even if everything is designed in the parent worldspace, should there
be a convincing argument to move it to a child worldspace in the future
it will not be too hard to implement; the render can be just copied and
pasted in to the child and the entire co-ordinate system is still the
same, so scripts and AI packages only need slight modifications.
On a side not, personally I like the idea of a canton with an open
square in the middle (maybe with fountains and plants in the central
square), so you could stand from any balcony level and be able see all
the NPCs and market sellers trading at various different levels. Not
unlike for example, the multi-level electronic shopping malls in
Singapore or the many enclosed town squares in Spain (and I'm sure many
other countries) - you have a window on everything that's happening in
that entire area, great for people watching.
But this may not be in the design or the lore, but I think would make
for a more invigorating experience, the open sky, turning pink in the
late afternoon, sitting in a small cafe along one of the long
balconies, watching NPCs at all levels, the trickle of many fountains
below, some background ambience to give the impression of liveliness ...
Lightwave
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2007.04.10 20:11 |
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KuKulzA
King
Registration Date: 2005.09.07
Posts: 7,619
Location: USA / Taiwan
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it was an early idea of mine, I'm sure those who understand FPS and LOD
and the like a lot more than me would be able to better advise when the
time comes... of course. But still, each canton is a town, so with more
than 20 people bustling around each Canton potentially, or crossing
into others... personally I think it would be a big thing...
this is all in consideration I heard you coul dhave like 15 people max on your screen before it blows up on ya
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2007.04.10 20:39 |
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Moryal
First Knight
Registration Date: 2007.03.02
Posts: 122
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Is it possible to script it so that when you swim to a given x,y,z
coordinate in the vvardenfell world, it sends you to a place in the
Vivec world where you would logically appear? If so, you could just put
the cantons for Vivec (With no NPCs, clutter, etc) in the real world so
that you could see them when swimming towward them but then are warped
to the more detailed worldspace when you get close.
As for the clutter from the regular world, you could probably just
procedurally generate it as you can't walk close enough to see flaws
anyway without warping into the real world.
As I said, I don't know how possible this is but if it is, it would probably solve some problems.
***EDIT*** You could just take the player's X,Y,Z Coordinates and
subtract them from those of the corner of Vivec in the Vvardenfell
world. This should give you the PC's position relative to a corner and
from there, it wouldn't be hard to write a script placing the PC in the
world appropriately.
or is there a limitation in the TES IV CS that there wasn't in the TES III CS?
Just a thought. 
This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Moryal: 2007.04.10 22:12.
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2007.04.10 22:01 |
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blackbird
ST Modder
Registration Date: 2007.03.27
Posts: 719
Location: Brugge (Flanders, Belgium)
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Vivec isn't a walled city, but is protected by water. Perhaps one
worldspace for the city can help a lot, but I think that different
spaces are too much. Each conton of the city is connected to another
canton. |
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2007.04.12 00:50 |
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Moryal
First Knight
Registration Date: 2007.03.02
Posts: 122
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Just to give me an idea of how big an FPS hit we'd take, how big are you planning on making one canton?
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2007.04.12 02:11 |
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KuKulzA
King
Registration Date: 2005.09.07
Posts: 7,619
Location: USA / Taiwan
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Cantons as big as they were in TES3 I guess, maybe a little bigger...
only thing is if every canton has at least 5-10 people traveling
outside in the player's view at any given time, and you are in an
intersectionof cantons so to speak, you can get quite a few people on
your screen... its a bustling city
ideally we only need 1 or no worldspace, but realistically I worry about the FPS hit...
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2007.04.12 02:24 |
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blackbird
ST Modder
Registration Date: 2007.03.27
Posts: 719
Location: Brugge (Flanders, Belgium)
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Will a canton be larger than 1 cell? Every canton of Vivec was in MW
one cell, but in OB the cells are smaller. Could this cause for
problems? |
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2007.04.12 12:51 |
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Dave_91
Marquess
Registration Date: 2006.07.12
Posts: 1,371
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Hmm... I'm not sure about that, but it would be pretty annoying for
load screens to appear when the player is moving around the cells. |
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2007.04.12 14:00 |
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IAMTHEEMPEROR
Archduke
Registration Date: 2006.07.04
Posts: 1,948
Location: New England
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There is no real noticeable loading when you walk around outside. Only
when you travel, are teleported, or go inside is there a loading
screen. While outside, you can still walk around while it loads.
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2007.04.12 21:15 |
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Dave_91
Marquess
Registration Date: 2006.07.12
Posts: 1,371
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Yes, but with considerable slowdown, I imagine.
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2007.04.12 22:48 |
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IAMTHEEMPEROR
Archduke
Registration Date: 2006.07.04
Posts: 1,948
Location: New England
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No, it lets you move just like normal. You do your thing, the game
loads the exterior objects for about two seconds on my game, no
slowdowns at all, just a little message that says loading. Doesn't
interrupt any gameplay at all. Wish TES3 did that, stupid pause
loading.....
__________________
Imagination is more important than knowledge.
For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world.
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2007.04.13 06:46 |
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KuKulzA
King
Registration Date: 2005.09.07
Posts: 7,619
Location: USA / Taiwan
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well I guess it is decided, I will have the section set up soon
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2007.04.17 22:12 |
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