 Shadowkey |
Braggi
Seigneur
Registration Date: 2006.09.23
Posts: 287
Location: B.C. Canada
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Thank you! Very useful and we will be looking that over.
Hraf from the original mod was very interested in Shadowkey and had a
quest line he wanted to develop based on that. He wrote several books
(which we still have in the mod resources now) to support his ideas and
even if we weren't going to develop his quests, they make great reading
as general interest items.
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2008.08.20 01:49 |
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Deeza
Editor
Registration Date: 2008.06.03
Posts: 1,066
Location: Procrastination
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I understand what you're saying, but I'm afraid that there seems to be
conflicting lore on this one which we need to sort out, because
according to the 3rd Pocket Guide to the Empire's section on Skyrim:
http://www.imperial-library.info/pge3/skyrim.shtml
Under the Imperial Simulacrum of Jagar Tharn, cold animosities
between the kingdoms of Skyrim and their neighbors in High Rock and
Hammerfell were fanned into the fire of war. Upon the true Emperor's
return to his throne, this war ended, but not before Skyrim had
reasserted itself on territory it had not held since the 1st Era.
The War of Bend'r-Mahk increased the territory that is considered
Skyrim considerably, allowing the Nordic counts to swallow up many
miles of eastern High Rock and Hammerfell. Resistance by the Bretons
and the Redguards is feeble in the cities of Jehenna and Elinhir, and more active in the border zones of the countryside.
It then goes on to say quite specifically:
There are few days without an act of terror from one resistance group or another, though, so far little territory has changed hands since the days of the Imperial Simulacrum.
It definitely sounds as if Jehanna at least is still occupied at the
time of writing of the PGE3 (which is a couple of years at most before
Oblivion - this information is contained in the "current events"
section of Skyrim).
I suspect that what we have here is a situation kind of like the
Balkans during and after WW2 - as you walk through the remote areas,
you pass through the territories of dozens of different resistance
groups, in many cases just bandits with uniforms, some of which want to
kill you, others don't for whatever mysterious reason. They are
fighting each other as much as they're fighting the invaders, and it
won't be a rare sight to come across fights between random groups of
bandits or clashes with Nord soldiers. This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by Deeza: 2008.08.26 14:06.
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2008.08.26 14:05 |
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Braggi
Seigneur
Registration Date: 2006.09.23
Posts: 287
Location: B.C. Canada
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OK, that demands some serious thinking...
Well, I did develop the city of Jehanna outline based on
the idea that the Nord influence was incredibly strong there to begin
with. In fact, the current ruler of the place is a Nord - with a Breton
wife, and Jehanna is depicted in that development as a city known for
its mineral exports and not its armies.
One of the problems I can see with the PG information is that Skyrim is
overextending itself. All through vanilla OB you keep hearing rumors
about a major clash between Skyrim and Morrowind, with a Nord invasion
force working its way into Morrowind. With that much manpower aimed at
the Dunmer, I wonder how much they would have left to worry about a
place where they are fighting a guerrilla war of attrition? However,
you do bring up a good point - the PG is quite specific here. I also
tend to agree with you regarding the comparison to the Balkans after
WW2, especially along the border.
I guess the thing that bothers the old-schooler in me is that the PG is
doing what comic book fans call a "retcon" (short for "retroactive
continuity") based on the events of Shadowkey. Retcons are notorious
for disturbing the balance and blurring (or even downright breaking)
accuracy in a developed millieu. Up until that particular PG came out,
every source and map I have consulted viewed Jehanna as Breton (come to
think of it, the most recent official map of High Rock from the PG
itself does so too, if the eastern border of the province given in it
means anything: http://www.imperial-library.info/maps/obcodex_high_rock.jpg )
The PG has also mixed up some items before that caused the first
incarnation of the mod some consternation (such as dropping the final
"e" in "Evermore" and spelling Shornhelm as "Sharnhelm" - we had those
two kicked around for some time before folks finally realized that they
were actually typos in the PG itself).
Additionally, the map for Shadowkey doesn't help things much - it
barely resembles the areas of High Rock, Hammerfell or Skyrim that it
is supposed to depict. (See below.) All of the major cities and
landmarks are missing, except for Dragonstar and the Crypt of Hearts.
Also the northern coast line of High Rock is really messed up, from
what little of it that can be seen. Artistic license perhaps, but it
certainly complicates trying to get an accurate idea of where the
borders for the three provinces are.
So, with that in mind, what suggestions would you offer for the area?
Braggi has attached this image (reduced version):
This post has been edited 4 time(s), it was last edited by Braggi: 2008.08.27 12:50.
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2008.08.26 15:01 |
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Deeza
Editor
Registration Date: 2008.06.03
Posts: 1,066
Location: Procrastination
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You're right, that is one weird map. I really can't figure it out at
all. It might be best to put it down as a local mapmaker's clumsy and
innacurate effort, and just ignore it.
I deeply sympathise with you on the issue of retconning - it can
produce really bizarre results, like Cyrodiil suddenly changing from a
mysterious jungle country to a wildlife reserve from eastern Europe. I
still have no idea what that was about.
However, as to your remark about Skyrim overextending itself by
invading both Morrowind and High Rock - it seems more opportunistic
than anything else. Morrowind is in chaos following the disappearance
of the Tribunal and the bloody rise to power of King Helseth, and at
the time High Rock was in a total mess anyway. It's really a case of
kicking them when they're already down, rather than an all-out war.
Additionally, as I understand it Skyrim is a federation of "Holds",
rather than a nation state. The war against High Rock and the war with
Morrowind are almost certainly being conducted by completely separate
ruling families and armies, so there isn't really a problem of dividing
manpower between two fronts.
OK, with this in mind, how's this for a resolution of this discrepancy - I present a "recently written"
Imperial-authored account of the consequences of the war, from
immediately after the restoration of the Emperor (ie. Arena) to the
present day (ie. Oblivion):
After the War of the Ben'dr-Mahk, Jehanna was formally incorporated
as a Hold of Skyrim in accordance with Nordic Law. However, according
to Imperial Law, the boundaries of the Imperial Provinces are fixed for
administrative purposes, and the Elder Council and restored Emperor
refused to recognise this annexation. Hence on all Imperial-produced
maps, Jehanna was still included as part of High Rock, and the border
was marked as the same position that it was in before the war.
The Nords countered that the area had officially belonged to them in
the First Era, and that the Emperor's claim on Cyrodiil itself could be
challenged on the same basis that they were being asked to relinquish
Jehanna. Meanwhile, the Nords advanced further into northern High Rock
and bloody clashes continued, as the Emperor made what the Nords
considered empty threats.
Then came the Warp in the West, and everything changed. Instead of a
mess of warring petty duchies, the High Rock that faced the Nords was
now composed of unified nations, a much tougher proposition to invade.
Yes, they were at war, but the Nords were not skilled enough at
politics to exploit this. Armies were displaced by the effects of the
Warp in the West, and the Nordic advance stalled.
At this point, his borders expanded and position reinforced, King
Gortwog saw a chance to enhance his prestige and influence, and offered
to come to the aid of the Reachmen, traditional allies of the orcish
people. In this way he could portray himself as a loyal subject of the
Emperor, and perhaps gain favour.
Faced with this new threat, the Nords were prepared to accept a
diplomatic solution. A young Nord general from a well-renowned family (your Nord king, Braggi)
was married to the Breton daughter and last surviving heir of the
previous King of Jehanna, and the status of the town as a county of
High Rock was restored. The main body of the Nord left, content that
the city was now ruled by one of their own as it had been in the past.
A few, however, stayed in the city and settled, remaining to this day.
But there were many on both sides of the conflict who refused to accept
this solution. Many small bands of Nord raiders remained in the area,
looting and plundering in "compensation" for their "lost lands", and a
great number of Breton fanatics and loyalists to the previous regime
became partisans in the wilderness, fighting to overthrow the new Nord
King and "restore" a minor cousin of the family to the throne. This sad
state of affairs has persisted for almost twenty years, with neither
side prepared to back down, and the remnants of armies devolved into
little more than bandits.
This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Deeza: 2008.08.26 18:14.
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2008.08.26 18:13 |
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Braggi
Seigneur
Registration Date: 2006.09.23
Posts: 287
Location: B.C. Canada
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I like it. (In fact, I down-right love it!)
This neatly sews up the objections I had for Jehanna and the province
as a whole, without violating the Lore as it stands - no mean feat
there. It also gets the eastern regions of the province involved more
directly with the rest of the territories through the efforts of
Orsinium (which I know is personal passion of your own) and
it reflects the instability of the Empire as a whole with an insight
into how the Emperor was dealing with it before his death. Nicely done.
Kulkuza, DarkAsmodeus, Hraf and I were thinking of trying to work
something out to account for this whole problem two years ago - you
just synthesized it very nicely. Ku and I had a few ideas floating
around about some covert activity between Orsinium and Jehanna, but not
by this direct an approach. Those discussions never go finalized
because of my leaving to beta test. To be honest, I really like this
idea better. It's fully justifiable under current Lore, its creative
and it keeps underhandedness down to a dull roar - that is especially
important since Nords (such as the Duke I cooked up) are known to be
more bluff and direct then subtle.
Keep an eye open for when I start the Jehanna Lore thread in the Cities, Towns and Settlements
forum. I would like to incorporate your work here into that location.
Also, would you be open to developing the above into a book to be
scattered around the mod in appropriate locations? It needs a title and
we may want to fancy the writing up a bit to reflect the Imperial
written style. Once we have it fully tweaked, I can drop it into the CS
and we'll have a new item to add to the mod in a Lore-critical area.
Alternatively, if you are comfortable with making books for the game
yourself, you can attach the ESP for it in the Claims forum once it is up and running.
How say you?
Update
If you like this idea, we could actually create a series of books in
the same vein for any cartographic inconsistencies we encounter (which
I expect will be a few). Two possible titles for the set that jump out
at me include:
1. "Excerpts From the Minutes of the Imperial Cartographer's Guild, Volume I" (and so on).
2. "The Cartography of Politics: The War of Bend'r-Mahk" (with
other titles in the series being prefaced with the "The Cartography of
Politics" followed by the subject at hand.)
Please add any additions you like. This is exactly what the Lore forums are for!
Thanks again - excellent conflict resolution.
This post has been edited 5 time(s), it was last edited by Braggi: 2008.08.27 02:30.
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2008.08.27 02:03 |
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Deeza
Editor
Registration Date: 2008.06.03
Posts: 1,066
Location: Procrastination
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I think its a great idea and would like very much to develop this
further. I think the forum discussions over geography could make a
whole series of interesting books.
I'm not very good at putting the books in the game though (can never
get the formatting quite right). I agree that one needs a little
rewriting, and will upload the new version when I get around to doing
it. |
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2008.08.27 14:13 |
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Braggi
Seigneur
Registration Date: 2006.09.23
Posts: 287
Location: B.C. Canada
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Well, we can certainly get your books sorted out, s feel free to write and submit as you like.
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2008.08.27 22:37 |
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Deeza
Editor
Registration Date: 2008.06.03
Posts: 1,066
Location: Procrastination
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Here, as promised, is the first volume of The Cartography of Politics: The War of the Ben'dr-Mahk.
I have tidied it up, added a foreword from an Imperial academic and
made the language more appropriate for an Imperial official text.
Suggestions for further volumes:
The Status of Orsinium (is it justified in its campaign for provincial status)
The Anticlere Question (the ongoing struggle for the border between Wayrest and Daggerfall)
The War of Betony, A Geographical Perspective (which side had the right of the argument in the annexation which caused the war)
Perspectives on Primogeniture Petition Number 3826 (the legal case for
King Gortwog's claim on Orsinium which got him the right to duel with
the other claimant to create the city-state)
A Case for the Continued Neutrality of Balfiera (the report on the
stabilising effect of the independent island which convinced the
Emperor to back its neutrality)
Depictions of High Rock: A historical persepctive (an in-joke, about the inconsistencies between the various maps of High Rock)
Sounds good? Of course it will take a while to write them all, so
perhaps other people are interested in helping me or adding titles of
their own? I'm off on holiday for most of next week, but after that I
will try to get one or two others done.
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2008.08.28 16:24 |
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Braggi
Seigneur
Registration Date: 2006.09.23
Posts: 287
Location: B.C. Canada
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When you get a moment, check your PM's. I have attached the updated
version of Volume One of the Politics of Cartography for your
inspection and approval.
Thank you again!
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2008.09.07 21:04 |
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Deeza
Editor
Registration Date: 2008.06.03
Posts: 1,066
Location: Procrastination
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Quick question:
Which one of the titles suggested above would you most like to see done
next? I still have some free time (uni term starts in a couple of
weeks), so now would be a good time to say if you have anything you'd
especially like writing. |
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2008.09.10 21:07 |
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Braggi
Seigneur
Registration Date: 2006.09.23
Posts: 287
Location: B.C. Canada
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Orsinium, of course!
You have laid out an excellent beginning for it, so have a blast with it.
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2008.09.10 21:10 |
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Gyssar
First Knight
Registration Date: 2006.09.07
Posts: 107
Location: Moscow, Russia
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Well, since you're already working on Orsinium and have a pretty solid
base to work off, go ahead and do "The Status of Orsinium" if you like.
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2008.09.10 21:10 |
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Deeza
Editor
Registration Date: 2008.06.03
Posts: 1,066
Location: Procrastination
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All right.
Will let you know how that one progresses.
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2008.09.11 10:21 |
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Shadowkey
