 Temples by Region (Updated 05 10 2008) |
Braggi
Seigneur
Registration Date: 2006.09.23
Posts: 287
Location: B.C. Canada
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 Temples by Region (Updated 05 10 2008) |
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Here
is an edited repost of a subject from the original High Rock project
archives that could use some expansion. Based on this, we need to
figure out what temples would be located in the Eastern half of the
province. Any obscure Lore reference you might have that can fill in
some of the blanks would help tremendously!
This can also act as a guide to the absorbed territories from the Warp
in the West, since in researching the subject, we were able to get them
sorted out in detail. Feel free to point out error corrections based on
the current Lore - we need this for accuracy!
Hopefully this will be useful as a guide for possible temple placement
within the various surviving assimilated areas in Wayrest, Daggerfall
and Orsinium. It could also serve as inspiration for temples in areas
that have no set religious Lore in the rest of the province. Of course,
each person responsible for a city-state and its associated region(s)
will have final say about what goes where, so these are offered as
possible guidelines only.
The following is a list of deities and the regions they were worshipped
in western and central High Rock as of TES2. The information is taken
from the chart on pages 12 and 13 of the Daggerfall Chroncles hint
book, published by Bethesda. All of this information dates from the
years immediately before the Warp in the West. All territories
mentioned have been cross-referenced with the in-game map in TES2 to
ensure no Hammerfell locations are included.
In addition, this list will be updated as we develop new game Lore
or untangle some of the current Lore conflicts. Once the list of Towns
and their temples has been finalized, the finished form will be posted
as a sticky for modder reference.
Key to the Realms of High Rock
(DF) - Daggerfall
(WR) - Wayrest
(OS) - Orsinium
(CA) - Camlorn
(EV) - Evermore
(FR) - Free Region
Temples by Region
Akatosh: Isle of Balfiera (FR), Wayrest (WR)
Arkay: Orsinium Area (OS)
Dibella: Daenia (DF), Dwynnen (DF) (WR), Gavaudon (WR), Tulune (DF)
Julianos: Koegria (WR), Menevia (OS)
Kynareth: Alcaire (WR), Daggerfall (DF), Wrothgarian Mountains (OS)
Mara: Anticlere (DF), Betony (DF), Glenumbra Moors (DF), Northmoor(DF), Ykalon (DF)
Stendarr: Bhoraine (WR), Phrygias (CA), Urvaius (DF)
Talos (Tiber Septim): Shornhelm (FR)
Zenithar: Glenpoint (DF), Ilessan Hills (DF), Jehanna (EV), Kambria (WR), Shalgora (DF)
Thanks go to Hraf from the original project for the invaluable Lore
about which TES2 territories were absorbed by the modern High Rock
states and for catching a couple I missed in his list.
This post has been edited 11 time(s), it was last edited by Braggi: 2008.10.07 22:18.
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2008.08.20 21:46 |
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Deeza
Editor
Registration Date: 2008.06.03
Posts: 1,066
Location: Procrastination
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Based on the above desciption, here is my modified version of the in-game map showing the territory of the new kingdoms.
The key to the numbers on the map can be found here:
http://www.uesp.net/dagger/dagmap.shtml
The one area on which I had to disagree with your list was number 34
(circled in red), Menevia, being aligned to Orsinium. It's right next
to Wayrest and would result in the new kingdom being cut in two, which
makes no strategic sense at all. So in my modified map I have assigned
it to Wayrest. What do you think about this?
We could always say that when Orsinium and Wayrest made their alliance, this province was ceded to Wayrest as part of the deal.
By the way, here is a complete list of every temple in Daggerfall:
http://www.svatopluk.com/daggerfall/temples.stm
It also contains fascinating information about how the gods of the
Elder Scrolls universe got their names. Full descriptions of the way
each temple operates can be found here:
http://www.imperial-library.info/nine_divines/
You have to scroll down to the "Daggerfall Temples" section.
What's most interesting is that every single temple has an order of
Knights attached to it, which could all be joined in the original. But
what's even more important is that there's only
Eight Divines in High Rock. Tiber Septim isn't worshipped here, and the
Temples appear to be independent of the Imperial Cult (which includes
Septim as Talos, the Ninth).
Deeza has attached this image (reduced version):
This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by Deeza: 2008.08.20 23:12.
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2008.08.20 22:49 |
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Lady Nerevar
Marquise
Registration Date: 2006.01.04
Posts: 1,362
Location: Not in hiding anymore
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Orsinium shoudnt be very big, after all, its mostly just a single city.
even with the miracle of peace orsinium is nowhere near a full fleged
province, more like a city-state. if anything I would make it smaller 
as always, thats just imho.
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2008.08.20 23:47 |
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Lady Nerevar
Marquise
Registration Date: 2006.01.04
Posts: 1,362
Location: Not in hiding anymore
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I'm pretty sure were not including it. there might be some orc
settlements up in the mountains but thats still a long way down the
road and very low priority.
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2008.08.21 16:57 |
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Deeza
Editor
Registration Date: 2008.06.03
Posts: 1,066
Location: Procrastination
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According to this book:
http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/warp_west.shtml
Anticlere is now part of Wayrest, although it's a bit ambiguous.
The relevant section is:
Wayrest spreads across the eastern coast of the Bay, stretching from the land formerly called Anticlere to half of Gauvadon.
But it also says:
Daggerfall is still ruled by the Breton King Gothryd and the
Redguard Queen Aubk-I. Their land now encompasses all of western High
Rock, from the border they share with Wayrest at Anticlere to the east,
to Ykalon to the north.
Tricky one.
What do you think?
Oh, and apparently the King of Daggerfall has four children.
The Queen of Wayrest has two.
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2008.08.22 14:08 |
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Gyssar
First Knight
Registration Date: 2006.09.07
Posts: 107
Location: Moscow, Russia
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Not sure I can find the source, BUT, I'm pretty sure that Anticlere is
Daggerfall territory. But, it's being torn between DF and Wayrest,
being a border town.
__________________
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2008.08.25 09:15 |
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Tabber42
Knight
Registration Date: 2008.06.22
Posts: 81
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I wonder, would DF and WR share it? probably not cause they are at war... Hmm
I wonder if it can swap, some weeks be Daggerfall, some Wayrest, just
to show the border dispute and it would help show WR and DF are
fighitng and such such such
Either way, prob be interesting if we could have it swap allegiances
every so often (swapping a flag or something to show its allegience and
swapping guards, nothing too serious)
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2008.08.25 09:20 |
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Braggi
Seigneur
Registration Date: 2006.09.23
Posts: 287
Location: B.C. Canada
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Gyssar:
I have Anticlere updated to Daggerfall's territory. It might be
interesting to split the location, as mentioned by Tabber, in which
case I can have two region allocations given for it in the list above.
__________________
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2008.09.04 07:57 |
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Braggi
Seigneur
Registration Date: 2006.09.23
Posts: 287
Location: B.C. Canada
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Glad you brought this up!
Right off the top, let me state clearly that, personally, I agree with
you about Shornhelm being it's own Kingdom. We have a few issues like
this based in recent Lore that need resolution.
The map you linked to is from the Pocket Guide to the Empire 3rd
Edition and it does indeed appear to indicate that Shornhelm is it's
own kingdom. Ditto for Jehanna, as another example. The problem is the
guide's text does not agree with the map, which makes for a difficult
decision - which one is right?
For instance, the Pocket Guide lists Jehanna as Nord territory now due
to the War of Bend'r Mahk. (You can bet that, as the developer of that
city, I was none-too-thrilled to find that one out!) Regarding all of
the realms in High Rock the Guide (which is the latest official Lore
source for the province of any sort and is listed in the Link Library)
says the following:
"They call the event the Miracle of Peace. On the 10th of Frostfall,
a strange force exploded over the Iliac Bay, displacing armies and
decimating whole territories. Though its nature is still unknown, most
Bretons believe it was the ancient Gods who had once made High Rock
their home scouring the land, making it whole once again. Though it was
a painful process for most - the Miracle is sometimes spoken of as the
Warp in the West - the result of it is a province that is more unified
than it has ever been in modern history. Where once there were a hundred small squabbling kingdoms, today, just two decades after the Miracle, there are five."
Things get even messier when you see which five of the original Kingdom are supposed to be left. Again from the PG3:
"This is not to say that there have been no tensions over the new
borders between Daggerfall and Wayrest, or between Camlorn and
Northpoint and Evermore, but they are localized skirmishes, and have
yet to explode into war, as they might have done in the past."
So, what we are left with, if we follow the Guide blindly, is that High
Rock is now made up of five of the original kingdoms - Daggerfall,
Wayrest, Camlorn, Northpoint and Evermore - with Orsinium a new and
rising power. It also leaves the following locations dangling in the
breeze: Shornhelm, Jehanna (supposedly taken by the Nords) and Farrun.
My personal belief is that whoever wrote this got the concept of the
effects of the Warp confused and then didn't do their homework on the
rest of the province to boot. (Heck there must have been something
shoddy going on in terms of research - the provincial map in the guide
misspells "Shornhelm" as "Sharnhelm" and "Evermore" as "Evermor".)
Although the Warp only affected Wayrest, Daggerfall Orsinium and some
portions of Hammerfell, the way the guide tells it, the Warp seems to
have affected the entire province of High Rock! In addition, the Guide
author either forgot about Shornhelm and Farrun or assumed that they
were taken over by other nearby territories. (Of course, the author is
never good enough to indicate which nearby territories, if the the latter case is true.)
Faugh!
I don't hold with this idea at all when it comes to Jehanna, just as
I'm sure you don't hold with the idea of Shornhelm being a vassal state
to either Camlorn or North Point. Yet I also didn't want to just throw
out the Lore either. Fortunately, Deeza came to my rescue by suggesting
a workaround that gave Jehanna her autonomy back and reconciled the map
discrepancies, without breaking the Lore as given. Didn't even heavily
bend it to be honest. He also wrote a book to explain the discrepancies
in-game through various volumes put out by the Imperial Cartographer's
Guild (and he did a fantastic job on it to boot).
His idea? The War of Bend'r Mahk occurred during the last years of the
Imperial Simulacrum and did indeed end with Skyrim grabbing a lot of
High Rock land. Once Uriel Septim was released, he discovered what had
happened and made it clear that as the imperial overlord, he was not
willing to recognize the Skyrim claim on High Rock lands from a war
that was not sanctioned by the Imperium to begin with. Thus, imperial
maps list Jehanna as Breton, not Nord and they also do not recognize
the "new" Skyrim border. The only real gain for Skyrim was in placing a
Nord on the throne of the city. And, the city itself is now nominally a
vassal of Evermore, although in reality Jehanna is actually a free
city-state with a number of border troubles to contend with.
Now, why go through all that above about Jehanna? Because we need to
put on our thinking caps to come up with a way to work out the position
of Shornhelm. (We'll have to do the same down the road when it comes
time to develop Farrun as well.) I suggest you PM Deeza with the
conflict and ask his opinion. He has shown a talent for solving Lore
conundrums like this with an eye to keeping original and later Lore
intact. I'm certain the Shornhelm's connection to the Crypt of Heart
can easily be the deciding factor. Let him know how you envision
Shornhelm and direct him to your posts that have Lore sources then let
his fertile imagination go to town.
Thoughts?
This post has been edited 4 time(s), it was last edited by Braggi: 2008.10.05 09:31.
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2008.10.05 09:19 |
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Braggi
Seigneur
Registration Date: 2006.09.23
Posts: 287
Location: B.C. Canada
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That's not a bad idea at all.
I reduced Jehanna in name to a Barony, so it is somewhat exempt to the rules you mentioned as well, being a new type of state.
Also, What about the Septim descendants living there, I wonder? They
certainly wouldn't give in easily to the idea of either Camlorn or
Northpoint suddenly taking them over, especially since the city was
granted to Anorak's descendants in perpetuity.
Back to you TOYB.
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2008.10.05 09:35 |
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The Old Ye Bard
Princess
Registration Date: 2006.05.25
Posts: 3,663
Location: Post-Feminism
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Braggi
That's not a bad idea at all.
I reduced Jehanna in name to a Barony, so it is somewhat exempt to the rules you mentioned as well, being a new type of state.
Also, What about the Septim descendants living there, I wonder? They
certainly wouldn't give in easily to the idea of either Camlorn or
Northpoint suddenly taking them over, especially since the city was
granted to Anorak's descendants in perpetuity.
Back to you TOYB.
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Read ettique with rulers, a Barony is a sub-region of a Kingdom, a
Principality is not mentioned (A prince, as in the Ruler of a
principality, not the Unmarried ruler of a Kingdom). And I covered the
treatment of the Andorak's in the last post "Also due to it's stronger
diplomatic immunity, it was never affected by the Warp in the West."
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2008.10.05 09:44 |
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The Old Ye Bard
Princess
Registration Date: 2006.05.25
Posts: 3,663
Location: Post-Feminism
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Braggi
Thanks for the pointer on the Barony.
I agree that it was never affected, so that covers Camlorn. Now what
about Northpoint? During a time of unrest, would it have any political
ambitions over Shornhelm? If so, how did the Septims stymie them? (This
stuff will make great additions to both the history of the province and
the timeline as well.)
Also, I have updated the list in the first post, adding Tiber Septim
and listing Shornhelm's political affiliation as unknown until we get
it finalized. Let me know once you get it cemented and polished and
I'll get edit the list post to reflect it. |
The Andorak Septims would have been able to muster Imperial forces to
combat any threat from a Neighbouring Kingdom, and the Kingdoms would
have been very
wary of the consequences of an attack on them. Their militia against
battle hardened, highly trained, Imperial troops? They would be
slaughtered, however I'm sure the Andorak's wouldn't have tried to do
take anymore land, the current Prince is a complete nervous wreck, he
probably had himself locked away in the highest tower with half his
troops around the castle.
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2008.10.05 10:00 |
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