 Witch Covens |
Gyssar
First Knight
Registration Date: 2006.09.07
Posts: 107
Location: Moscow, Russia
 |
|
We discussed the issue of adult content with Braggi yesterday and,
frankly, we're pretty open-minded when it comes to things like nudity
and violence. But, we have yet to come out with an official statement
concerning this matter pertaing to the project.
__________________
|
|
2008.08.21 08:52 |
|
|
Tabber42
Knight
Registration Date: 2008.06.22
Posts: 81
|
|
I would vote to let the 'sad person with nothing better do to with his time' to do this.
If we went ahead and added in nudity, we would lose probably the
majority of age groups that still live with their parents, as well as
the few who get offended easily by such things.
It would really be impractical too for the weather in High Rock, far too cold to be out naked and running around.
The age changing script would be awesome if we could do that though.
|
|
|
2008.08.21 12:20 |
|
|
Deeza
Editor
Registration Date: 2008.06.03
Posts: 1,066
Location: Procrastination
|
|
Please don't get me wrong, Gyssar. I'm not trying to be prudish at all.
I was just thinking that, realistically, many if not most of the people
who end up playing our mod will still be living with their parents, and
things could get complicated if we put in nudity, that's all.
And I have to agree with Tabber42, it's just too cold (particularly seeing as most of the covens are up in the mountains)!
|
|
|
2008.08.21 14:09 |
|
|
Braggi
Seigneur
Registration Date: 2006.09.23
Posts: 287
Location: B.C. Canada
|
|
Hi folks, let me get my proverbial 2 cents in as well. About adult content I'm of two minds.
On a personal level I don't really have any objections. I'm not prudish
and I'm plenty old enough to make up my own mind about what I do and
don't want to see.
On the other hand, as one of the mod developers, I do realize that some
people find this sort of thing disturbing or offensive and that a
number of players of TES are younger folks.
I suspect it would not be very wise to include nudity in the mod as an
integral part of it, even for the witch covens, since this is a mod
aimed at an "all ages" audience. There is also the fact that modders
run the gamut in ages and I would hate to see someone talented pulled
away from both the working atmosphere and the fun and social
connections you make in modding by parents or due to age or propriety
concerns.
It may be best to simply let items such as visual nudity and similar
adult content be added by the player at their own discretion through
whatever other mods they choose to use in conjunction with ours. This
way we leave freedom of choice and we also make High Rock accessible to
everyone regardless of age.
Regarding written items, there are adult themes throughout the TES
books going all the way back to TES2 in 1996. These have been
tolerated, so I suspect we are safe enough there, so long as we are
similar to the original developers - be tasteful and considerate of the
audience.
What does everyone else think?
__________________
|
|
|
2008.08.21 19:48 |
|
|
Lady Nerevar
Marquise
Registration Date: 2006.01.04
Posts: 1,362
Location: Not in hiding anymore
|
|
i'd prefer not to stare at old nekkid witch hags while I'm killing
them. I would either do partly trasparent or suggestive clothing (for
cults of diabela or prostitutes for ex.) or "omg that breast is about
to fall out but I dont want to see that cause that chick is like 90"
clothing for witches and cults. take a look at the goblin shaman mesh,
I think something like that would be appropriate for witch covens.
|
|
|
2008.08.21 20:25 |
|
|
Braggi
Seigneur
Registration Date: 2006.09.23
Posts: 287
Location: B.C. Canada
|
|
Regarding the morphing animation, here is one possibility (Thanks go to Tabber for creative input on the concept):
1. We create 2 or more versions of the NPC in the CS, each in a
different age category. Only one version will ever appear in the game
world at any given time.
2. At a set time of the day, a script triggers what appears to
be a magical effect around the NPC, swapping the younger NPC version
for the old (or older to younger - they're witches, after all - who
says they won't age backwards? 
)
3. The script is triggered at set times of the day as part of the NPC's schedule.
Now let me describe what the player would see based on this:
You go to Gelnmoril with coven, as an example. The coven priestess ages
forward from dawn to dawn, starting out youthful at dawn, aging at
noon, dusk, midnight and resetting to her youthful appearance at dawn
again.
At each of the set times, the player sees a magical aura surround the
priestess and she ages. Her clothing might or might not change to
reflect this, but her physical appearance does alter. In between
transformations she can be spoken to or give quests and so on.
Based on this idea, you would only need to have the scripted swapping
out happen a few times of day, so it would save game resources. The
constant morphing effect from TES2 is practical for the 2D sprite
images used in that game, but are much more resource intensive for a
fully 3D game like TES4. It would also allow the player to stay and
watch the NPC changes if they wanted and if they are running around
doing quests, it would add variety whenever they visit a coven.
Further, no two coven preistesses would have to have the transformation
occur at exactly the same time, so we could have fun playing with when
they transform and whether it is from old to you or the reverse.
This is just an initial concept, so poke holes in it to find the flaws,
please! If someone skilled at scripting or who is more experienced in
the CS can add in items that I don't know about to build on this, go
right ahead.
__________________
|
|
|
2008.08.21 22:51 |
|
|
Braggi
Seigneur
Registration Date: 2006.09.23
Posts: 287
Location: B.C. Canada
|
|
To add to the fun, here is a detailed Lore article I pieced together
for witches and covens through High Rock. I *think* it's pretty
thorough, but I always welcome any additions or corrections.
Witches in High Rock
The term “witch” in High Rock tends to be applied to people in one of two types of situation:
1. Members of an organized coven in the eastern and central portions of the province.
2. Tribal shamans, healers and witch doctors in the Western Reach.
Witches as a faction had their own quests and affairs in TES2. Largely
ignored, they were primarily known for summoning Daedra and would do
this outside the rigid schedules held by the Mage Guilds in the various
cities and towns. In order to receive access to the coven’s Daedra
summoning, you first had to build your reputation with the coven
through quests. It would appear that witches are scattered all across
Tamriel. Though perhaps less common in other places, they are known for
certain to congregate in groups throughout the provinces of High Rock,
Hammerfell and Morrowind.
Lore
Note: Lore is given in order of appearance throughout the TES
games. For example, even though the book “The Mirror” appears in TES3
and TES4, it is credited as a TES3 source since this was its first
appearance in the Elder Scrolls games.
TES2 Daggerfall
- There were known to be eight named witch
covens scattered around the High Rock portion of the Illiac Bay in the
period immediately before the Warp in the West. (See the “Named High Rock Covens” section below.)
- In addition there were six named covens in the Hammerfell portion of the Illiac Bay.
- Many minor, unnamed covens were scattered throughout dungeons and
various houses for sale or shops in cities, towns or settlements in
both provinces. Most of these would appear to be branches of the
Glenmoril Coven, due to their similarities in occupants and the Daedric
being summoned (namely Hircine).
Source: TES2 Daggerfall
- In TES2 the Glenmoril coven is mentioned as one source of the cure for Lycanthropy.
Source: On Lycanthropy
TES3 Morrowind
- Covens are most frequently found in and around daedric ruins in TES3.
- One of the Imperial Cult quests in TES3 sends you to dispose of the
lone witch Thelsa Dral in an egg mine near Khuul. She is originally
from a coven of witches known to have established itself in the daedric
ruin of Ashalmawia.
- Witches in Morrowind seem to be quite untrustworthy, having the habit
of bedeviling male Nords whom they hire as escorts. At least three Nord
warriors were so afflicted during the period of the ascendancy of the
Nerevarine.
Source: TES3 Morrowind
- One of the witches from Skeffinton Coven was manipulated into
summoning Mehrunes Dagon for a former Spymaster of Vivec. This
summoning was supposed to take revenge upon the Duke of Morrowind, but
resulted in the Daedric prince razing Mournhold. The current city of
Mournhold has been built atop the ruins of its destroyed ancestor.
Source: 2920, The Last Year of the First Era
- In TES3 Bloodmoon a letter from a Glenmoril witch to her sisters can
be found on the Isle of Solthstheim. It gives directions to find a
scroll to cure lycanthropy and mentions in passing that the sister(s)
recovering it may need to use their raven form to get the scroll from
its hiding place.
Source: Bloodmoon: Note From a Gelnmoril Witch
- Reachman tribal shamans of the female persuasion are referred to as witches.
Sources: The Mirror
- The Breton author of the first volume of reference works for
Necromancers refers to the "witch kings" of antiquity in High Rock.
Source: Corpse Preparation, Volume I
TES4 Oblivion
- The Breton Witch Melisande residing in Nibenay offers the cure for vampirism.
Source: TES4 Oblivion
- One of the ancient members of the Direnni clan, Raven Direnni, is named as a witch.
Source: De Rerum Dirennis
Named High Rock Covens
Note: See the attached map of the Illiac Bay for exact locations.
1. The Beldama (aka The Beldama Coven)
Location: North-central Daenia; located inside a mound, with two
spear-wielding female guards outside it. Inside the mound is a witch
priestess surrounded by a circle of dancers.
2. The Daggerfall Witches (aka The Daggerfall Coven)
Location: Shalgora, near the western border Daggerfall Kingdom;
located within the base of a ruined tower and consists of one witch
priestess accompanied by a single dancer.
Notes: This coven is not actually in the Kingdom of Daggerfall,
but the neighboring Kingdom of Shalgora, close to the Daggerfall border.
3. The Daughters of Wroth (aka The Wroth Coven)
Location: South-east edge of the Wrothgarian Mountains; located
within a circle of spear-wielding women in a field of rubble. The witch
priestess stands in the center of the circle.
4. The Glenmoril Witches (aka the Genmoril Wyrd Coven)
Location: The east-central Ilessan Hills; located inside a
mound, with two spear-wielding female guards outside it. Inside the
mound is a witch priestess surrounded by a circle of dancers.
Notes: This coven is usually called Glenmoril Coven or
Glenmorial Wyrd Coven in the games, although the map name in TES2 says
its name is “Glenmorial Coven”. Glenmoril Wyrd would seem to be the
dominant witch coven in western High Rock (and possibly even the entire
province) since all covens found in urban areas in TES2 appear to be
parts of it, offering the same quests and summon Hircine exclusively.
Known urban locations for this coven included:
- Daggerfall City in the Kingdom of Daggerfall
- Town of Oxway in the Kingdom of Daggerfall
- Town of Eastwick in the Kingdom of Daggerfall
- Town of Longing in the Kingdom of Daggerfall
- Near the Mouse and Jug Tavern in the wilderness in the Kingdom of Daggerfall
- Town of Midpath Hill in Orsinium
- City of Easttale in Wayrest,
Notes: A number of the smaller town locations, specifically
those in the Kingdom of Daggerfall and the Kingdom of Wayrest, have
since been destroyed by the effects of the Warp in the West. Any
surviving branches of the coven will likely either have relocated or
have set up shop in the ruins.
5. The Sisters of The Bluff (aka The Coven on The Bluff)
Location: On the west coast of the Kingdom of Daggerfall,
overlooking the Eltheric Ocean; a lone witch priestess stands beside an
altar in the open.
6. The Skeffington Witches (aka The Skeffington Coven)
Location: South-central Phrygias, near the Dwynnen border;
located within a circle of stones is a single witch priestess next to
four dancers.
7. The Tamarilyn Witches (aka The Tamarilyn Coven)
Location: South-western Menevia on the tip of Tamarilyn Point,
the largest peninsula facing Balfiera Ilse; a circle of seven dancing
girls in a clearing and in the center of the circle is the witch
priestess.
8. The Witches of Alcaire (aka The Alcaire Coven)
Location: Alcaire, North West near the Koegria border; a single witch within a circle of shrubs in a clearing.
Coven Quests
As a faction, witches tend to be neutral, concerned only with their own
affairs. They largely abstain (with a few exceptions) from interfering
with politics and their offered quests tend to reflect this. Missions
given to a PC could include any of the following possibilities:
- Retrieving religious documents from temples which showed the coven in a bad light.
- Escorting a child marked to become a gifted witch in her adulthood and protecting her from fanatics.
- Delivering a potion of holy water to a mages guild while vampires and
werewolves tried to stop you. The potion could be used to cure either
of the previous conditions, but using it failed the quest and hurt your
reputation with the coven.
- Destroying an ancient vampire who had infringed on the coven’s territory, threatening it.
- Rescuing a captive coven member from a dungeon.
- Stealing a book important to the coven from a dungeon while avoiding its guardians.
- Carrying out vengeance on someone who had turned against a coven by
delivering a bracelet to them and then slaying whatever they
transformed into.
- Retrieving ingredients from three separate dungeon locations.
- Acquiring a daedra’s heart from a specified dungeon.
Rewards for quests on behalf of a coven in TES2 were usually gems,
minor magical items and/or reputation boosts with the coven itself. The
biggest reward was, of course, access to Daedric summoning through the
coven Priestess or Priest, in order to gain knowledge of the
whereabouts of various Tamrielic artifacts.
Summoning Daedra
As with the Temples and Mage Guilds in TES2, covens will summon Daedra
on the day appropriate to the being in question. Unlike the previous
two groups, covens in certain areas would only summon a specific
Daedra, as follows:
Glenmoril Coven: Always summons Hircine
Coven of the Bluff: Summons Peryite on days not dedicated to a specific Daedra
The daedra and their summoning dates used in TES2 were as follows:
Morning Star 1st: Clavicus Vile
Morning Star 13th: Meridia
Sun's Dawn 2nd: Sheogorath (He may also appear on stormy nights when you try to summon the other Daedra)
Sun's Dawn 16th: Sanguine
First Seed 5th: Hermaeus Mora
First Seed 21st: Azura
Rain's Hand 9th: Peryite
Second Seed 9th: Namira
Mid Year 5th: Hircine (Can only be summoned by witches)
Sun's Height 10th: Vaernima
Hearthfire 3rd: Nocturnal
Frost Fall 8th: Malacath
Frostfall 13th: Mephala
Sun's Dusk 2nd: Boethiah
Sun's Dusk 20th: Mehrunes Dagon
Evening Star 20th: Molag Bal
Braggi has attached this image (reduced version):
This post has been edited 7 time(s), it was last edited by Braggi: 2008.08.27 13:52.
|
|
|
2008.08.26 03:12 |
|
|
Braggi
Seigneur
Registration Date: 2006.09.23
Posts: 287
Location: B.C. Canada
|
|
There were a number of features from TES2 that we were kicking about as
ideas for the mod two years back. Although the purist in me likes them
(a lot) I suspect the summoning dates would be too stringent to impose
on TES4. There is a global variable to set the speed that time passes
in the game. You can even make so that 1 minute real time = 1 minute
game time. Some players use this as a separate mod (myself for one).
TES2 did not have that option (many features, such as time speed, were
hard coded), so the summoning dates were more usable. Fast travel in
the older game ate up a lot of time, as one point, as did jail time and
dungeoneering, since TES2 dungeons were enormous and you could (and
did) spend game days lost in them.
For players who like a slower time scale, I suspect the dates may just
not be practical to use. Although many people may not use a 1:1 ratio,
slow downs in the time speed are a common modification. Even without
being a hard core "time realist", a lot of gamers still slow the time
from 30:1 to 20, 10 or even 5:1 instead. Imagine having to wait a year
of game time at the slower time scales to get a summoning of a
particular Daedra, just because it falls in the month before Frostfall,
when the standard TES4 game starts. 
With a slower time scale you can do more in less time so the wait is
much, much longer in real time. If we bog that down too much, people
may get bored or frustrated quickly, given the rest of the game engine
and mechanics. I suspect the TES4 way of summoning (based on character
level instead of time) is a bit more realistic, based on this.
Thoughts?
This post has been edited 3 time(s), it was last edited by Braggi: 2008.09.11 20:50.
|
|
|
2008.09.11 20:47 |
|
|
Deeza
Editor
Registration Date: 2008.06.03
Posts: 1,066
Location: Procrastination
|
|
You make a good point. The time alteration aspect had not occurred to
me. But I don't much like the leveled summoning system in Oblivion
either. How about a sort of half-way house hybrid between the two?
Azura already has a script that means she can only be summoned at dawn
or dusk. The witches could have a similar system in which the other
Daedra can only be summoned at particular times of day.
For example, Nocturnal could be Midnight (give or take an in-game hour).
Meridia (light-related) could be Midday.
Hircine could be Full Moons (once a month)
Sheogorath during a storm (I believe this was when he appeared in TES2)
Molag Bal when it's snowing (similar to the temperature in his Plane of Coldharbour)
And so on and so forth....
|
|
|
2008.09.11 21:43 |
|
|
Braggi
Seigneur
Registration Date: 2006.09.23
Posts: 287
Location: B.C. Canada
|
|
You know, that could actually work quite well. Earlier in the thread we
were all discussing the morphing animation idea for the witch
priestesses... if we were to tie it to their schedules that way, so
that you could only do the Daedra summoning when she was in a certain
age-form - that might work very well.
We might also want to keep the idea of earning a coven's trust through
running a single "prequel quest" for each coven. These would give a
strong nod to TES2, yet still keep the engine differences in mind *and*
avoid the whole leveled summoning idea.
I suggest we take your ideas and play with them to get a list of
summoning times built up for use in the modding and claims section. So,
the basic list would look like this, at the moment:
Azura:
Boethiah:
Clavicus Vile:
Hermaeus Mora:
Hircine (Can only be summoned by witches): Full moons (once a month)
Malacath:
Mephala:
Mehrunes Dagon: (Do we even want him summonable given the
Oblivion crisis? We will be having Oblivion gates in the mod as well,
since they are opening all over Tamriel during TES4.)
Meridia: Midday (give or take an in-game hour)
Molag Bal: Snowy weather, when it is similar to the temperature in his Plane of Coldharbour
Namira:
Nocturnal: Midnight (give or take an in-game hour)
Peryite:
Sheogorath: Stormy weather
Sanguine:
Vaernima:
In addition to summoning times additions, if I have missed any Daedra please let me know so I can add them to the list.
Another point - some Lore based Daderic quest suggestions and rewards
would be handy. We'll need to avoid re-using the Daedric and other
major artifacts given in TES4 already.
- As a starter addition, let me also suggest that we make Hircine's
artifact a shield, to give another nod to TES2 - you quested for his
shield in game, but got his ring instead. (I suspect the change from
shield to ring was last minute and due to the various "forbidden"
weapons and armor options that came as part of class creation in TES2 -
everyone could use a ring, no matter what class. So, if we use
lycanthropy in the mod, we can have the shield do whatever we want that
way.)
Excellent suggestions!
This post has been edited 3 time(s), it was last edited by Braggi: 2008.09.13 17:56.
|
|
|
2008.09.13 17:49 |
|
|
Deeza
Editor
Registration Date: 2008.06.03
Posts: 1,066
Location: Procrastination
|
|
Ok, I've got a few ideas, lets take them one at a time:
Just my take on Mehrunes Dagon: I don't see why not. As I understand
it, he isn't attacking Tamriel because he has any ill will towards it.
He's just an anthropomorphic personification of destruction and doesn't
have much choice. Attacking Tamriel and trying to destroy the world is
his thing, its just what he does. The main goal of the Daedra in
interacting with the mortal world seems to be to have fun (because
their own worlds are incredibly boring). So even though he's attacking
Tamriel, he's probably up for a few quick games with adventurers to
keep his mind occupied between Oblivion gates opening. 
As for avoiding re-use of artefacts from Vanilla:
How about (except in the cases of Daedra who have more than one
artefact like Hircine) actually making new artefacts? They were all
originally created by the Daedra shaping part of their essence into a
tool for a mortal who gave them exceptional entertainment value.
There's actually nothing at all, lore-wise, to stop the Daedra creating
as many new artefacts as they feel like, as long as the end product is
consistent with the Daedra's personality and base powers.
Other suggestions:
Perhaps you can only summon Sanguine whilst you're drunk?
Vaermina, the player has to be asleep during the summoning, and gets spoken to in their nightmares.
|
|
|
2008.09.13 23:56 |
|
|
Tabber42
Knight
Registration Date: 2008.06.22
Posts: 81
|
|
An artifact from Mehrunes Dagon... Sounds dangerous lol. If they took
form from some aspect of him / his personality, I couldn't see how they
would be stable in the normal plane. If they were too, they would
damage both the weilder and everyone around him, as he is the sphere of
destruction / natural disaster, of everything, not a specific thing.
|
|
|
2008.09.14 08:15 |
|
|
Deeza
Editor
Registration Date: 2008.06.03
Posts: 1,066
Location: Procrastination
|
|
How about....
Mehrunes' Dagon's quest is that you actually have to OPEN an Oblivion
gate. Your reward is the "privelege" of fighting some of his most
powerful servants, who will emerge when it's open. Of course, if you
defeat them they have powerful kit. |
|
|
2008.09.14 11:18 |
|
|
|
|
Witch Covens
) I assume that we're going to do what all the other projects have and
brush all that under the carpet for the sake of the kiddies (and
presumably leave it up to some sad person with nothing better to do
with his time than "restore the original version") ? 