 A Worthwile Idea? |
Siegfried
Archduke
Registration Date: 07.03.2006
Posts: 2,598
Location: With Your Mom...
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I was thinking the other day, and it occured to me much of what had
been written/planned for the current Skyrim Mainquest would be useless
to us as we would not be visiting those locations in our mod, now that
we have reduced the scale. I then got to thinking about what we ought
to do with our mainquest, when the thought occured to me: why even have
a Mainquest?
I don't know how good this idea is, or how warmly it will be
received by the rest of the team. I feel though that with the revision
of the mod's scale it's something that ought to at least be discussed
and looked at.
In place of the mainquest, we could have deeper, better developed
faction questlines. In my mind this would probably be a better way to
really pull the player into Skyrim and its lore. A MQ works nicely for
leading a player all over a continent and introducing them to various
places and locations, but since we're only working with a fraction of
the nation of Skyrim, why not scrap the mainquest, and arrange faction
questlines so that they could allow players to delve deeper into the
lore of Skyrim. This I think might bring the world to life more.
So far for faction quests we for sure have an internal power struggle
taking place within the Thieves Guild. The Pit is fairly
straightforward, compete in various Arenas, become the local Champion,
and then move to the Championships held in Windhelm (or wherever the
main Arena is going to be placed. The DB doesn't really have a
presence, just a few misc. quests.
For the Order of the Silver Raven, we could have them focus on
defending Skyrim against dunmer incursions and raiding parties--
basically the war with Morrowind. I also suggest that we alter them
from a chivalrous order to something to something more Nordic-- more
like a warrior type brotherhood who live and train together, less about
honor and more about martial prowes and patriotism. Maybe give them a
more Nordic sounding name, the Norwegian translation of Order is
Rekkefolge-- I think something like that could be good on for the Order
on its own. (Changing the name also helps differentiate them some more
from the Order of Oak and Thorn).
The Order of Oak and Thorn could focus on dealing with an undead menace
as in the mainquest before. Or else maybe they in staying with the
Oblivion theme they could feature incursions into Hircine's Realm, or
some sort of Master the runes questline where the player must learn the
language of runes and master 'Runemaul' (the art of wielding the
runes/forging them into weapons armor/harnessing their power).
The Mages Guild could center around investigating the dissapearance of
the Falmer, trying to unravel the mystery behind their dissapearance.
Or perhaps if they were to have a slightly darker twist to them, they
could center around trying to steal the knowledge of Runemaul from the
Order of Oak and Thorn.
And lastly we come to the Fighter's Guild. Really I can't recall any
clear cut plans for them. Maybe we should just make them like a totally
free-lance Mercenary Guild, how much over-arcing story do they need.
Should we just give them repeatable, semi-random quests? Obviously they
wouldn't just be fed-ex quests. It should be possible to create a
format where "wanted" criminals spawn around Skyrim, and then wander
the land, hide in cities and caves, and the player has to hunt them
down all by himself. Escort missions would also probably be fairly
straightforward (though they would really need to be spiced up somehow).
If we were to go about it this way, I would suggest having the 3 native
Nordic factions take priority for the 1.0 release. Factions are time
consuming to make, 3 in one mod would be an impressive accomplishment.
Later on we can implement the three Cyrodilic Guilds and the DB misc
quests. This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Siegfried: 26.01.2008 06:58.
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26.01.2008 06:54 |
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Alasdair
Jarl of Skyrim
Registration Date: 29.08.2006
Posts: 1,169
Location: Somerset, England
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Actually I think this is a great idea. I didn't really know what we
could do with a mainquest, the lore on the politics and current events
in this area of Skyrim is pretty much non-existent, except for the war
with Morrowind. Beyond that, pretty much everything needs to be thought
up. The problem of the war with Morrowind is that it's difficult to
make a questline involving it without actually having any part of
Morrowind to base quests in. I thought about how the player could
participate in a war with Morrowind without actually attacking
Morrowind, but I could never see a way for it to truely work.
Your idea of exploring the conflict with Morrowind via the Order of the
Silver Raven, or Rekkefolge (not a bad name, it's growing on me) is a
good one. Perhaps the player could raid Dunmer bases in abandoned
forts, assassinate leaders and 'extract information' from helpless
Dunmer civilians. There's a lot of fun and narrative to be had without
the entire questline really going anywhere significant geopolitically,
unlike what a questline involving the holds would have to do. Not that
I'm suggesting that the questline shouldn't have a interesting and
important storyline, it just wouldn't have to end with something major
like Morrowind loosing the war (or similar). We just don't have the
ability/scope to do quests like that. Oh, and I fully support the idea
of changing the order from something chivalrous to something more raw
and nordic, it'll definitely fit better in Skyrim that way.
As for the Order of The Oak and Thorn, the idea with the Runes is a
definite no. While it has merit as an idea, I don't feel that it fits
with TES lore. In TES as far as I know, there is no inherent power in
Runes themselves, although they can be used to decorate enchanted
objects (they're very pretty 
). I like the idea of incorporating Hircine into the questline, the
Order could perhaps be more sinister than they first appear. Maybe they
secretly revere Hircine or something? Doing quests for Daedra lords can
be a lot of fun, as they often have interesting and strange motives. Of
course this raises the problem of werewolves in the mod, which is
something we need to consider. The undead idea is also worth thinking
about, but without the entire of Skyrim lots of ideas in the old MQ
would need re-worked.
I think the mages guild and fighters guild could probably be dropped
and relegated to simply handing out a few misc quests, they don't make
a lot of sense as a joinable factions without the whole of Skyrim (how
can you become guildmaster of the Skyrim guilds in only two full holds 
) The biggest pit will definately be in Windhelm, and the smallest in
Vernim Wood. An mid-size pit could be placed in Sunguard. With the more
martial focus of the Rekkefolge, it seems like a good location. |
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26.01.2008 22:23 |
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Cuthalion
Count
Registration Date: 08.05.2006
Posts: 783
Location: Utrecht, The Netherlands
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Although I don't really have much to do with Skyrim, I will not withhold my advice.
It would be a - possibly fatal - mistake. The player needs a somewhat
'guiding hand', always 'something' to do. It'll lead the player through
the cities and people, and it will provide a goal for the player to
reach. Also, a mainquest should be one of the reasons players actually
play your mod.
If needed, I could write the mainquest.
PS: If you decide on making a mainquest, I'd say doing it about
Hircine... Requires little to no lorebreaking / intensive modding since
the 'Huntingrounds' (Hircine's plane) looks quite like the Skyrim
locale.
__________________
Quote of the Day
There's real poetry in the real world. Science is the poetry of reality. Richard Dawkins, The Enemies of Reason
Factions:
Silgrad Tower Mages Guild
Skyrim Thieves Guild
Vvardenfell Mages Guild
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27.01.2008 00:54 |
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Siegfried
Archduke
Registration Date: 07.03.2006
Posts: 2,598
Location: With Your Mom...
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Perhaps rather than having a MQ that is even remotely related to saving
the world, have it focus on you and only you. Perhaps there is some
sort of a curse that has been put on the player that must be broken? Or
maybe you befriend someone in Skyrim (one of the companions from the
old MQ could maybe be adapted?) and then must help them along on a
personal journey. Or else maybe Hircine is speaking to you, projecting
visions into your mind? Do you heed the visions and become the hunter,
or struggle against them?
The factions could be tied into the mainquest line whereas they will
advance side by side and somewhat inderdependantly. You need to be a
part of a faction to begin the MQ, and then depending on what faction
you're in, it may open up different branches and plot twists along the
way. You may need to advance in rank within your own faction at the
same time to earn the respect of other members, in turn they will help
you along in the MQ, as you are their brother in arms. The faction as a
whole though avoids being pulled in-- as the MQ would be something that
is entirely personal for the player.
Also at Alasdair, I have to disagree with you about the runes. I could
very well be wrong, bu what about the Doomstones around Cyrodiil? I
always assumed they were runestones of some sort, and so at least set
some sort of precident for that type of magic in Tamriel. Runes don't
necesarily have to be a source of magical power.
Perhaps scattered around Skyrim there are shards or ancient runes that
the player can collect. These shards have magical properties and can be
attached to a special suit of armor/weapons by a mage smith. Now it is
not that the runes themselves inherently have magical capabilities,
maybe it is the shards of metal/stone they are carved into function as
a sort of primeval soul gem. The rune only functions to focus the power
and tell what form/enchantment it manifests itself in. From these elder
runes that actually hold power, the myth that runes hold magical power
is derived. |
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27.01.2008 03:03 |
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Richard
Chieftain of Skyrim
Registration Date: 23.08.2006
Posts: 747
Location: Invercargill, New Zealand
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Siegfried
Perhaps rather than having a MQ that is even remotely related to saving
the world, have it focus on you and only you. Perhaps there is some
sort of a curse that has been put on the player that must be broken? Or
maybe you befriend someone in Skyrim (one of the companions from the
old MQ could maybe be adapted?) and then must help them along on a
personal journey. Or else maybe Hircine is speaking to you, projecting
visions into your mind? Do you heed the visions and become the hunter,
or struggle against them? |
I don't really like the idea of forcing anything on the player
initially such as a curse. It takes away some of the beauty of ES; the
ability to be who you want to be (as I've already said, the way
Oblivion went about that with the MQ forced on the player wasn't good
IMO). I very much like the Hircine idea though, just without the
projecting visions. Visiting particular sites (runes, groves etc)
perhaps could project the visions, that way it's kept on the player's
terms.
Also I really like the undead menace idea as the focus of the Oak and
Thorn. Perhaps some heretic necromancer could be resurrecting warriors
as those deer-head skeletons we have in the name of Hircine or
something. This would allow us to incorporate some lore/religious
elements to combat his blasphemous deeds against the laws of nature (I
believe necromancy is frowned upon everywhere but Morrowind?) and
Skyrim's apparently favourite daedra, Hircine.
This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by Richard: 28.01.2008 03:39.
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28.01.2008 03:31 |
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Cuthalion
Count
Registration Date: 08.05.2006
Posts: 783
Location: Utrecht, The Netherlands
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Skot the Sanguine
Honestly, I disagree with Cuthalion. One of the reasons I preferred
Morrowind over Oblivion is that the player could "do their own thing".
Personally, I think development of guild quests and random
soldier-of-fortune stuff like the Goblin-hunter quest (from LONG ago)
or even a build your own tavern quests, are far better than a linear
save the world MQ. So...I like the idea Siegfried. |
I absolutely DID NOT advocate a 'save the world' MQ. I said a somewhat guiding hand that gives nudges, at most. Don't twist my words.
__________________
Quote of the Day
There's real poetry in the real world. Science is the poetry of reality. Richard Dawkins, The Enemies of Reason
Factions:
Silgrad Tower Mages Guild
Skyrim Thieves Guild
Vvardenfell Mages Guild
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29.01.2008 18:53 |
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Alasdair
Jarl of Skyrim
Registration Date: 29.08.2006
Posts: 1,169
Location: Somerset, England
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Siegfried
Also at Alasdair, I have to disagree with you about the runes. I could
very well be wrong, bu what about the Doomstones around Cyrodiil? I
always assumed they were runestones of some sort, and so at least set
some sort of precident for that type of magic in Tamriel. Runes don't
necesarily have to be a source of magical power. |
The green ones are actually referred to as runestones, so I guess they
do set somewhat of a precedent. Maybe the runes add value to the
object, in the same way that (in Morrowind, oblivion dumbed down the
enchant system) daedric weapons are more enchantable than their steel
or iron counterparts, the runes add value to the otherwise worthless
stones and allow them to be enchanted. If you look at it like that, the
meaning of the runes could actually have some bearing on the
enchantability of the stone. Maybe you could give us an outline of what
a runic-based questline would entail? Runes are always cool, and could
make for an interesting questline. I think it's worth pointing out that
as we can't add new skills, a 'mastering the runes' type thing could be
hard to pull off convincingly (as well as maybe being a bit generic).
Maybe the runes could link into other ideas in this thread involving
Hircine or something else.
| quote: |
Originally posted by Cuthalion
I absolutely DID NOT advocate a 'save the world' MQ. I said a somewhat
guiding hand that gives nudges, at most. Don't twist my words. |
Your post did seem to imply a save the world MQ; even if it wasn't the
true intention, it's easy to see how people would interpret your post
as advocating that style of mainquest. I think Hircine is the most
promising route for the order of the oak and thorn, while the order of
the silver raven questline can deal with the war with Morrowind. Those
two questlines pretty much cover all we really need. Trying to fit
another questline into two holds could make it a bit 'busy'. There's no
reason why the two factional questlines can't both be 'main quests' in
their own right. If the player is nudged into them, as both you and
Richard have suggested, the player should never be unsure as to what
too do. This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by Alasdair: 29.01.2008 21:32.
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29.01.2008 21:30 |
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Skot the Sanguine
Knight
Registration Date: 11.10.2006
Posts: 93
Location: New York, USA
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Cuthalion
I absolutely DID NOT advocate a 'save the world' MQ. I said a somewhat guiding hand that gives nudges, at most. Don't twist my words. |
Then I misread your meaning, I didn't twist them. regardless, I think
the lack of a MQ would not be detrimental as long as there are still
other good quests to do.
__________________
That which does not kill me only delays the inevitable.
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29.01.2008 23:10 |
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Siegfried
Archduke
Registration Date: 07.03.2006
Posts: 2,598
Location: With Your Mom...
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A link from the very first few days of the project back before Oblivion's release: Rune Quest Idea
Throwing out a hypothetical system for us to implement runes.
Barebones System:
Ok, so basically runes are scattered
around Skyrim, they are powerful artifacts. For the most part they are
hidden in out of the way places, in a crypt, at the bottom of a river,
or perhaps as a reward for some random sidequest, where the giver
doesnt realize the items true value. These runes can only be worn in
the amulet slot. Because of their obscurity, and the fact that you can
only have 1 equipped at once, they would be considerably powerful.
Powerful enough that if you had multiple runes in your possession, you
would want to switch between them to take advantage of all the
different buffs they grant.
Complex System:
From the basic system we could go a number of ways (or just say screw
it and just use the barebones system), these would all build on the
original idea, but expand the system. Note that each highlighted system
below is totally seperate from the others.
--Runic 'Bling':
Not only can the player equip runes in the amulet slot, but also in the
ring slot. To compensate for this, runes would be less powerful than in
the barebones system. However, the twist here, is that if you wear the
proper combination of runes, you form a rune word , that grants a
unique buff all its own. Obviously this buff would be tied to the
definition of the word. By shuffling various different weak enchantment
amulets, the player is capable of forming powerful rune words to meet
unique and changing challenges. This is most likely the simplest system to implement. It would also allow for the most versatitility on the part of the player
--Runic Tattoos:
After finding the proper collection of runic amulets, the player may
speak to a rune master within the Order of Oak and Thorn. The rune
master will give you a list of alchemical ingredients unique to Skyrim
to collect for him, bring them to him, and he will mix them to form an
enchanted 'ink'. From there you have a selection of rune words or "bind
runes" (I'll explain bind runes later) to create assuming you have
found the proper rune letters. The rune master then channels the power
out of your rune letters and into the ink. From there he tattoos your
chosen bind rune onto your body and you receive the power of the word
as a constant effect buff (the tattoo would appear as a shader effect--
which is likely the most effective way out there to implement tattoos,
as equipping/unequipping is not an issue). This
is in my opinion the coolest and most original system of implementing
runes, but also the most difficult to create and balance.
--Runic Armor/Weapons:
In the case of armor/weapons, runes would be inscribed on some form of
metal shards (adamantium? ebony?) so that they could be forged. After
collecting the proper rune shards you can have a rune master create you
a suit of armor with bind runes on it. He can also forge single runes
into weapons so that they can take advantage of the buff from one rune,
you would get a choice from the x number of runes that were not used in
the creation of the armor to apply to your weapon, so you can have a
variety of different enchantments on your weapons. In addition to the
proper runes, the player would have to bring the smith the metals to
create the suit. With this system we would need an all new suit of armor and weapons modeled and textured.
With all systems we would need to decide what role the Order of Oak
and Thorn would play in the player's access to the runes. When the
player initially finds a rune, should they only be able to access a
fraction of it's power before showing it to a shaman/runemaster? If
they are a high enough within the Order themselves, should they be able
to recognize the power of the runes on their own? Would it be worthwile
to make finding the meaning of the rune/learning its tale a system all
its own?
Lore:
--Origins:
The Divine Julianos was originally a member of the Nordic Pantheon, and
their deity of Runes (until he pissed someone off and got kicked out).
If memory serves me correctly, he taught the Nords to write in the
beginning, and that writing took place with the runic alphabet. Now my
idea here is that the priests/shamans of Julianos new a secret to
inscribing runes onto a certain type of stone/metal that would allow it
to hold magical power, and the specific rune on it would dictate the
form the power came out in (in our case whether the rune has a +STR
enchant or a fire resistance enchantment). After Julianos left the Nord
pantheon, the knowledge was lost, and most of the power runes were
lost. The legend however, lives on.
--The "Tale of" a Rune:
The shape of the rune symbolizes something, and the enchantment on the rune is tied in with a "tale" of Nordic Legend.
-Hypothetically speaking from our alphabet, were 'W' considered to be a
rune, it would symbolize the horns of a Monster. The tale of the
monster is that he had collosal strength, and killed many Falmer in his
lifetime. Thus, the rune carries a +30 strength enchantment.
-Whereas were Y to be a rune, it might symbolize a man with oustretched
arms. The tale of the rune is that in ancient times the sun
fell-towards the earth, before it fell though, a King caught it in his
hands, and hurled it back to the sky. The rune's enchantment is 100%
fire resistance.
--Bind Runes:
A bind rune is essentially a rune word, however, the rune letters are
bound together in repeating, interweaving patterns that only the
creator of the bind rune can recognize. In the end, what once would
have been a generic word, is now a geometric design. The reason for
binding runes (besides making it look badass) as opposed to simply
writing them, is that when a rune is bound, a warrior's foe is not able
to recognize the word, and so incapable of speaking a counter-runeword
and negating the wearer's enchantment.
Alright, that took longer than I thought. This is all just off the top
of my head, so their's probably a great deal that needs to be balanced
and revised. I'm interested in hearing people's feedback. This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Siegfried: 31.01.2008 02:34.
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30.01.2008 01:02 |
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Siegfried
Archduke
Registration Date: 07.03.2006
Posts: 2,598
Location: With Your Mom...
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Anyone? 
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01.02.2008 03:03 |
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Richard
Chieftain of Skyrim
Registration Date: 23.08.2006
Posts: 747
Location: Invercargill, New Zealand
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The 'Bind Runes' would be pretty complex to implement maybe, but not
saying it's a bad idea. Everything else looks pretty good to me. Of
course, I'm not the one who has to script anything though lol. Maybe we
should stick to having them as amulets though to avoid overpowering the
player (depending on how strong we make these runes of course).
For runes the player obtains, (like the rune shards for armour and
weapons), I think they could be randomly generated with a VERY low
chance in certain loot, and once a certain rune has been generated it
won't be generated again, if that's possible (if not, just scrap my
idea lol). That way people who know the mod wouldn't just be able to go
instantly to the same place and get all the badass stuff right off the
bat which is a problem with commercial games I find. This could be
applied to all non-vital but uber weapons actually now that I think of
it...
I like the tatooing idea too, in fact it's excellent. Perhaps a choice
is given of several tatoos, like in KOTOR (if you haven't played it you
are a heathen and I no longer wish to speak to you) when you get the
opportunity to choose which class of Jedi you'd like to be, which is a
permanent thing for the rest of the game. Tatooes are for life you
know! I suppose a removal process would also have to be offered though,
like the cure for vampirism quest in Oblivion.
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01.02.2008 05:50 |
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Alasdair
Jarl of Skyrim
Registration Date: 29.08.2006
Posts: 1,169
Location: Somerset, England
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Sorry for not responding sooner.
What I like most is the idea of somehow speaking runes like you
mentioned in the Bind Runes bit, it ties into Th'um which is very much
lore based. Maybe once the player equips a rune into their amulent
slot, it adds a spell to their inventory. This spell is only usable
when the amulet is equipped, casting it would use up some of the
players magic, health, or some new resource (which we can implement as
a global variable, I'll explain how the new resource would work if
anyone's interested in this idea). This idea could easily be combined
with the bling idea by allowing players to equip the runes as both
rings and amulets. If we implemented runes as small collectable
rune-stones, it's easy to see how they could be used to do other stuff
like enchantable weapons by simple making them work like sigil stones.
The player would simply be given a choice of what to do with the rune
stone when they activate it in the inventory. The player could become
more skilled at using runes as they progress through the order of the
oak and thorn, and this could enable new ways to use runes, as well as
increase the power of already existing runic spells and enchantments.
It all doesn't sound too hard to script, and it sounds like it can be
done without having to use OBSE which could be a problem with
werewolves. |
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02.02.2008 23:00 |
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Alasdair
Jarl of Skyrim
Registration Date: 29.08.2006
Posts: 1,169
Location: Somerset, England
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Another idea: Maybe we could use a different runic alphabet than the
one used for generic text in game, in order to slightly differentiate
the magic from the non-magic runes. The Anglo-Saxon runic alphabet has
several runes that are different to the Elder Futhark ones we use for
generic in-game text.
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03.02.2008 01:09 |
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Skot the Sanguine
Knight
Registration Date: 11.10.2006
Posts: 93
Location: New York, USA
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Isn't that similar to the armor in Knights of the Nine? By which I mean
if you put a particular piece on, besides giving an enchant bonus, it
can give you a spell but only if you are wearing it (I believe the
gauntlets had a heal other spell if I remember correctly). In which
case you are right about not needing OBSE. I think it is a great idea
.
__________________
That which does not kill me only delays the inevitable.
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03.02.2008 06:42 |
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Alasdair
Jarl of Skyrim
Registration Date: 29.08.2006
Posts: 1,169
Location: Somerset, England
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I don't have KoTN, so I wouldn't really know anything about it, but it's good to hear that it's possible.
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07.02.2008 20:17 |
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A Worthwile Idea?
