 Falinesti and Satellites |
raggidman
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We need new concepts, then we can attempt some smaller Graht Oaks as
models and experiment with movement etc ... then when we are satisfied
that what we have can work we go for the big one.
See Falinesti the Moving City Thread and the Falinesti Concept Thread
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30.03.2008 15:11 |
 
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FLESH
Archduke
Registration Date: 23.06.2006
Posts: 2,824
Location: Ireland
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| RE: Falinesti and Satellites |
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As I said in the other thread, it is better to do them as Speed Tree
models, rather than model them ourselves. Two reasons:
1) If a person was to do them in 3DS Max (for example, just naming a
random modeling software) the models we want needs many branches, hence
many leaves, this would be a very hard model to make with such a
program, and one of them in-game could equal a district of the Imperial
City in polies ( again, examples).
2) Speed Tree models would just look better.
My thoughts.
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30.03.2008 17:50 |
  
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raggidman
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Registration Date: 06.01.2006
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| RE: Falinesti and Satellites |
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Refer you to answer in other thread
We already discussed this and have been put off Speed Tree because of its limitations and peculiarities.
We are talking long distance here - Speed Tree does not cope with that too well I understand
At that distance individual leaves would not be visible
Speed Tree does not do essential shapes
The Falinesti Speed Tree model does not work even without leaves - so we know there is an inherant size limitation in Speed Tree
k?
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30.03.2008 18:35 |
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FLESH
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Registration Date: 23.06.2006
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| RE: Falinesti and Satellites |
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No, we said that Speed Tree was off for Falinesti. The other Graht-Oaks
should be fine, as they are much smaller (considering the size of
Falinesti). I don't understand what you mean by the model not working
even without leaves, or why leaves should disappear at a certain
distance. It's not ST fault that we don't have billboards for our
trees. The only reason the tree disappears is because of Oblivion
itself. All I'm saying is that making big complex trees with leaves has
to be done with Speed Tree, not via modeling.
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30.03.2008 22:10 |
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FLESH
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Registration Date: 23.06.2006
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| RE: Falinesti and Satellites |
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Graht-Oak I posted it in the other thread also, but it belongs here more so. Come on people, lets get some concepts and ideas rolling 
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01.04.2008 22:35 |
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windsurfer
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Registration Date: 03.10.2006
Posts: 639
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The leaves are going to be so far up that a selection of planes with
leaf textures will work just fine. Animated leaves 1/2 a mile high are
a waste of resources.
Now what we can do for the Falinesti is to make the model by hand then
make trees in ST which we can use as branches in the area where the
player is going to be close to the leaves. If you understand what I
mean use a combernation of both. We than have the moving branches and
leaves and the flexability of a custom model (the large bracnches will
be 2 large anyway to swing in the wind)
Falinsta will be in seperate cells per level for performance.
While a low poly model will be fine when you are standing below the
tree as its so far up its impossible to see anything anyway. Again
massive planes can be used as leaves at that distance. |
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01.04.2008 23:57 |
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FLESH
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Registration Date: 23.06.2006
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ST trees can't be rotated, so it wouldn't be possible to place them as
branches if you know what I mean. I also don't think that the leaves
would be too high on a normal Graht-Oak, but yes on Falinesti. And you
underestimate saying you can't see anything with it being so far up,
you see everything, and up close it looks especially ugly with
stretched textures etc. leaves not on the branch correctly.
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02.04.2008 16:00 |
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raggidman
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Registration Date: 06.01.2006
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Hmmm - Graht = Great?
:shrugs: walks out into the road, looks at a tree 1/4 of a mile over
400yrds away - pretty hard to see individual leaves so clearly???
If the satellites are only half the size of Falinesti then the leaves
will be min 400yds up = not so individually clear - and that is useful
for poly-counts so why not go for it with a clumps of leaves?
Also the lower leaves will be about 1/4 mile high and the higher a 1/2
mile high on that size ... so the higher will be even tinier from a
distance ...
Take you back to another idea = Graht oaks are 'magical trees' and
might cary a sort of magical mist around with them that further blurrs
their details? Would that reduce or increase polies?
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02.04.2008 16:27 |
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FLESH
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Registration Date: 23.06.2006
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Well the thing is, I'm not sure how the siize would convert into
Oblivion. I made some trees for Silgrad where the largest of which was
much higher than anything else (meaning any other tree in OB at the
time). The tree I just made there would probable be slightly bigger, if
not then around the same size as the IC tower. Much much larger than
anything OB currently has. And I would agree about half the size being
the tallest, but I think there should be few of these because imagine
the time it would take for something to grow that much.
Also about the vicinity. I was thinking that because Falinesti takes
(sorry, took, I'm not sure about how much a new model would take up) up
around 3x3 cells, that a whole quad would be used (36 cells, 6x6) as
the vicinity. For comparison reasons, OB has 12 playable quads. So 1
quad is a massive area and 30 trees of this size would make it look
fairly populated, while not strain performace, if you get what I mean.
EDIT: I saw your edit. Well the tree, goes up much higher after those
couple of branches and leaves, I put them at around 3/8 of the way up
the trunk. It's also funny you should mention branches going around
each other etc. as I had a tree just like that open a few minutes ago
(I was trying to see how much I could manipulate them, while keeping
the tree looking treeish
)
This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by FLESH: 02.04.2008 19:44.
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02.04.2008 19:30 |
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FLESH
Archduke
Registration Date: 23.06.2006
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Location: Ireland
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No, one tree does not require an entire quad, that would be a bit too
large. As for your question I think they would fit, while being
relatively far away from each other. Trees like this need sunlight,
well all trees do, and where trees are taking up most of the sunlight
nothing else large can grow, which is why I think they would be fairly
spaced out, whilst maintaining almost total cleaf canopy coverage. I
think your spacing works out ok as well. Best way to find out is to get
some in-game and test it out. The trunk would be wider as I made it too
thin (imo) for the tree.
EDIT: On the topic of Water and rivers. Falinesties current position on
the map would situate it right beside a large inlet (maybe inside it, a
tree has got to drink
). This could mean that the other Graht-Oaks who follow it are also inside the inlet, making the area a marshX10?? Ideas.
This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by FLESH: 02.04.2008 20:09.
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02.04.2008 19:54 |
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windsurfer
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Registration Date: 03.10.2006
Posts: 639
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Ok fair point on the branches. Sounded such a good idea when I thought of it.
We still have LOD problems and are the branches large and flat enough fo a fair sized streets?
Also the lag of the city when you are on the branches with NPC,
swaying leaves, the massive distance you can view and the houses etc. |
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02.04.2008 20:19 |
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raggidman
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Morrowind handled distance quite well - it used the weather plus the
ash clouds to break it up often. In a forest that is quite possible in
different ways. With the 'small' forest around Falinesti I wonder in
addition to the likelihood that there is mana involved in their growth,
size and 'liveliness' plus there is the H2O to consider, air
density/pressure.
Could they affect the weather around them both naturally and supernaturally? After all they cannot merely be big trees.
Before that there is the matter of the writhing roofs DitF Ch2 that
Scotti gingerly walked over when he approached Falinesti. Add them to
ribver - what do you get when water is swished around???
The description mentioned a warerfall so there is a significant land
differential there, plus all the spume churned up by the roots.
Then these trees are huge so they need a lot of cooling 
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02.04.2008 20:58 |
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FLESH
Archduke
Registration Date: 23.06.2006
Posts: 2,824
Location: Ireland
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| quote: |
Originally posted by windsurfer
Ok fair point on the branches. Sounded such a good idea when I thought of it.
We still have LOD problems and are the branches large and flat enough fo a fair sized streets?
Also the lag of the city when you are on the branches with NPC,
swaying leaves, the massive distance you can view and the houses etc. |
Well the only place that needs houses on branches is Falinesti, which I
don't think we are doing in Speed Tree as we can't get a second layer
of branches plus the reasons you mentioned.
RM: They did that because they couldn't (at the time) get a better view
distance, technology restraints. It worked well at the time but if we
attempt to obscure the players vision in this way in OB it might prove
annoyin. Having mists (not permanent, but regular?) in forests doesn't
sound like a bad idea. It works especially nicely in dark ones
Perhaps the roots were writhing because Falinesti was moving? But it's
stationary right now, and has "rooted" itself so those roots are now
most likely underground me thinks. I think I also figured out a way to
add fake roots to SpeedTree trees (it doesn't make roots of it's own).
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02.04.2008 21:15 |
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raggidman
Prince
Registration Date: 06.01.2006
Posts: 3,317
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Valenwood is about the Vastness of the Great Green as much as about the
little peoples that live above, below and surrounded by it.
In Cyrodiil you were always on the ground, except in cities - but that
will have to change with Valenwood - and given the nature of Speed Tree
we will have to somehow assist it as even those small trees when laid
out will be quite a load. So I believe that there needs to be a lot of
weather in Valenwood as well as sunny glades and such.
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02.04.2008 21:31 |
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FLESH
Archduke
Registration Date: 23.06.2006
Posts: 2,824
Location: Ireland
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Indeed, we should see most types of weather besides snowy, theres
nowhere where I think snow would be present, unless a really high
mountain or something?
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02.04.2008 21:48 |
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Koniption
First Knight
Registration Date: 27.07.2007
Posts: 149
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Regarding what windsurfer and FLESH said about the problem with
rotating speedtree trees to place on a larger custom 3D tree model:
You don't have to rotate them....just place them vertical for branches. And my reasoning is this:
Model a custom tree to have bare branches that curve upwards so that
you can place ST trees into the branch ends. It can look natural
enough, and you can also add static branches and leaves to the sides of
the larger branches that you can't get the ST trees to rotate for. Make
the ST trees short trees, or maybe even bushes that have very little to
no branches (like in Oblivion bushes). The bushes swayed back and forth
too in the game. If you want moving leafed branches to the side of the
larger branches, I guess you can take a short bush with oak-shaped
leaves and have it sticking partway out of the branch side (with part
of the bush hidden inside the custom tree model). It'll still be
vertical and can't be rotated, but leaves should be able to be seen at
most angles if place right.
I have included a very rough picture I drew to show what I mean.
I hope you don't mind me butting in on your all's discussion, btw.
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02.04.2008 22:12 |
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FLESH
Archduke
Registration Date: 23.06.2006
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Not butting in, merely a fresh opinion. It's possible to rotate the
starting angle of the trees, meaning I can put them sideways, even
upside down. But I don't think it's a great solution.
You idea Konipton, sounds intriguing. Model the tree and some large
branches, then place the trees onto those large branches. There would
need to be a lot of modeling on the branches in order to get the trees
to fit in realisticly, then again no one will be up there to see the
seams, hmm.
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02.04.2008 22:20 |
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JAAdventurer
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Well, I like it. If someone will make me a few Speedtree branch-like
trees, I'd like to play with this (no promises, though). |
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02.04.2008 23:27 |
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raggidman
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Valenwood is becoming so overforested even our trees have trees growing on them! 
see the reaction = McBosmer thread in Lit Dev
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03.04.2008 12:38 |
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FLESH
Archduke
Registration Date: 23.06.2006
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Location: Ireland
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JAA: By play with it do you mean model Falinesti then place the trees on it?
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03.04.2008 21:47 |
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JAAdventurer
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Registration Date: 16.03.2008
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I mean try to model it and become irritated when my two-year-old laptop can't handle it. 
Absolutely NO promises here, I just want to try.
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04.04.2008 04:34 |
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JAAdventurer
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I think I'll start with a satellite.
But I foresee a lot of research on my part over the weekend. 
I just want to start contributing to this wonderful project.
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04.04.2008 14:40 |
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raggidman
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good choice - everything you learn by this should be valuable.
I have heard that Blender is not too comfortable with huge models, but
3DSMax might be able to handle it ... what kind of program are you
going to use?
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04.04.2008 16:28 |
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windsurfer
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Registration Date: 03.10.2006
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Sounds Good cant wait to see. Well model it small then change the scale on the exporter until its the correct size!!
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04.04.2008 16:46 |
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FLESH
Archduke
Registration Date: 23.06.2006
Posts: 2,824
Location: Ireland
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JAA: Great to hear you want to try it out. I have a problem with using
Koniptons technique for satelites though, I think it might be too low,
and the fact that it's tree sticking out of branches would be visible.
I'm going to reserve my final judgement until I see what JAA will make
of it.
BTW JAA, if/when you get to the part of using ST trees I'll be happy to assist you in any way 
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04.04.2008 17:34 |
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raggidman
Prince
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04.04.2008 21:50 |
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raggidman
Prince
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ok - seriously now
Think Dance in the Fire - it is very understandable, believe me. Read it slowly and give yourself time to enjoy it as a story.
Then think just how big these trees are. Look back in the big Falinsti Tread and you will come accross size comparisons.
Walk out into the street and look at trees 200 yards/meters away and
feel that is how high just the trunk will be for a Graht Oak. Compare
that to the 10 or twenty yard high trees you might see outside your
window.
Also re-read Lord of the Rings again especially about Tom Bombadil and
Fangorn. They are talking about what happens to Ents when they cease to
think like Ents and revert to 'treeishness' - they also cease to look
like ents and begin to look like trees ...
Graht Oaks are not really comprenensible - they are monumental and non-human, non-mer - very different and unique.
Ents 'walk' using their legs. Graht Oaks have writhing Roots. They may
not actually walk as such, and it will be quite a challenge to
satisfactorily portray in both words and modelling techniques the means
of that movement.
Maybe the strangest thing about it is that there are no descriptions of
huge gouges in the earth where they have previously passed. Gouges?
There should be deeply worn valleys!
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05.04.2008 11:54 |
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Mormacil
Herma-Mora the Woodland Man
Registration Date: 15.08.2006
Posts: 2,250
Location: Netherlands
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There walking plants/trees in SI 
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05.04.2008 12:46 |
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FLESH
Archduke
Registration Date: 23.06.2006
Posts: 2,824
Location: Ireland
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Raggidman: Could it be that when they walk by, the roots being mainly
underground, the disturb the soil so much that it remains in the same
place, yet forms a type of quicksand because it is not longer attached
together? It is also possible that Falinesti follows a river, in order
to always have water and to not drink too much from one place. It's
seeds (think acorns) are dropped where ever it has been and they grow
to form other Graht-Oaks, but not like Falinesti (perhaps too young?)
and can't walk.
JAA: The problem is it's still too LOTR sounding, and we want to keep as far away from LOTR and Star Wars as possible.
Mormacil: Including those means using SI, which I am not too fond of
because I myself don't have it, and wont be able to get it for another
while, plus it leaves out a lot of gamers. If someone can model similar
things though . . .
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05.04.2008 13:35 |
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Mormacil
Herma-Mora the Woodland Man
Registration Date: 15.08.2006
Posts: 2,250
Location: Netherlands
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Not really, most players have SI now and I think we will really need SI
to make this, it has so many great assets... It's cheap as well...
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05.04.2008 13:57 |
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llamaranger
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Registration Date: 06.05.2007
Posts: 439
Location: York, England
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JA, to id use blender's scult tool to make those roots look more
gnarled as FLESH suggested... but its lookin real nice so far
(roots may also need to be longer as well....)
Edd
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05.04.2008 19:11 |
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