 Falinesti and Satellites |
JAAdventurer
First Knight
Registration Date: 16.03.2008
Posts: 130
Location: Not here, but not really over there either.
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Alright, longer roots and a bit more randomness. I was thinking of
using the fractal (or whatever it's called), but the sculpt tool would
work just as well (maybe even better). |
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05.04.2008 20:20 |
   
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llamaranger
Baron
Registration Date: 06.05.2007
Posts: 439
Location: York, England
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also fractal will up the poly-count considerably 
but if thats not too much of a problem... use both lol 
Edd
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05.04.2008 20:27 |
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FLESH
Archduke
Registration Date: 23.06.2006
Posts: 2,824
Location: Ireland
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Haha well we don't want it too be crazy poly
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05.04.2008 20:50 |
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raggidman
Prince
Registration Date: 06.01.2006
Posts: 3,317
Location: where my heart is
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Good modelling is made like love with lots of experimentation.
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05.04.2008 20:58 |
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JAAdventurer
First Knight
Registration Date: 16.03.2008
Posts: 130
Location: Not here, but not really over there either.
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Very poetic, raggidman. And so true.
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05.04.2008 21:26 |
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raggidman
Prince
Registration Date: 06.01.2006
Posts: 3,317
Location: where my heart is
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... don't mention the headaches bit.
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05.04.2008 21:39 |
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JAAdventurer
First Knight
Registration Date: 16.03.2008
Posts: 130
Location: Not here, but not really over there either.
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Wasn't even thinking of it. Yet.
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05.04.2008 21:55 |
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windsurfer
Seigneur
Registration Date: 03.10.2006
Posts: 639
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Very Nice start 
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05.04.2008 21:57 |
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JAAdventurer
First Knight
Registration Date: 16.03.2008
Posts: 130
Location: Not here, but not really over there either.
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A bit more progress. From here on out is where it gets interesting. I'd like some guidance on how to proceed.
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05.04.2008 23:38 |
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Mormacil
Herma-Mora the Woodland Man
Registration Date: 15.08.2006
Posts: 2,250
Location: Netherlands
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The trunk itself looks okay but that's not a real tree
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05.04.2008 23:52 |
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raggidman
Prince
Registration Date: 06.01.2006
Posts: 3,317
Location: where my heart is
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Don't worry Mormy, it's early days yet.
Imagine they are the petals of a flower. the sun is overhead and they all want to open themselves to it.
But then they become interested in other things and may wander a bit to
one side or the other. And they taper somewhat, but actually end in
rounded off stubs
From top, bottom and sides of these giant thews other huge, but more
flexible tubes thrust out at right angles, and then curve so that they
can seek the sun.
These are far longer and likely a few may overlap each other at some
point, and reach out to the flexible tubes from the giants on either
side
The next smaller tubes from these may begin to twist and turn, snake in
and out etc, creating the basis for a tangle from which yet smaller
growths protrude in the same manner - and smaller and smaller until
what remain are twigs that have leaves ...
But what do I know
This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by raggidman: 05.04.2008 23:58.
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05.04.2008 23:56 |
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Lady Nerevar
Marquise
Registration Date: 04.01.2006
Posts: 1,300
Location: Not in hiding anymore
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05.04.2008 23:58 |
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JAAdventurer
First Knight
Registration Date: 16.03.2008
Posts: 130
Location: Not here, but not really over there either.
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Alright, I'm gonna back up to the point in the other pic. Branches are really difficult. 
I'm gonna go see if I can dig up some tree models from vanilla Oblivion and anywhere else I can find them and steal, I mean borrow, a bit of their tree-likeness.
JAA, about ready to start wielding an ax indiscriminately, out.
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06.04.2008 00:20 |
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raggidman
Prince
Registration Date: 06.01.2006
Posts: 3,317
Location: where my heart is
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I think that would be a job for Flesh ... if he is about today! He might help you find a useful copy of Speed Tree.
Too bad you have not gone for the pipes option, alien though it may sound.
Lady N - I was not disputing the requirement for variation, but what I
felt is that JAA is attempting something new, and when you do that it
is useful to 'styalise' a bit to get the requirements of the basic
structure clear and the feel of things.
Also I do believe that these major 'limbs' are just so vast that if
they did not follow a comparatively precise pattern they might totally
deform under their own weight and due to the stressees placed upon them
by the 'lesser' branches and Canopy.
I recon that they are as thick as a normal tree is high?
PS there's a new piece of Dungeon music in the Bard's showcase thread with plinks and spookiness!
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06.04.2008 11:05 |
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JAAdventurer
First Knight
Registration Date: 16.03.2008
Posts: 130
Location: Not here, but not really over there either.
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Great, more music for me to listen to while I fight with this EPIC tree.
Hey, FLESH. If you drop in, could you pretty-please tell me where to get a free version of speedtree? 
(puppy-dog eyes always help)
In other news, I have come up with another idea on how to approach
this. What if I created the basic tree all perfect and whatnot, with a
pipe-cleaner skeleton inside, and then mold it into treeishness
afterwards?
A bit calmer now, but with an ax still near to hand,
Just Another Adventurer
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06.04.2008 14:24 |
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FLESH
Archduke
Registration Date: 23.06.2006
Posts: 2,824
Location: Ireland
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Hey JAA: I was about to comment on the tree but I see that you have
started it over. As for Speed Tree, I got my copy from RW, I'd suggest
PMing him, which is what I did. However I think that once you get used
to ST, well, we'll see I guess 
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06.04.2008 15:06 |
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raggidman
Prince
Registration Date: 06.01.2006
Posts: 3,317
Location: where my heart is
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I've been mulling Lady N's comments and I believe she is correct about
both the height and diameter of the trunk. If you think about size and
proportions with animals then the bigger they are the more massive
their legs.
With something like this you should be contemplating almost a block -
well over 1/3rd the diameter of the finished tree and 1/3rd the height.
that should shrink your main branches considerably.
I do like the arrangement of the branches if you are going to add my
'pipe' branches - they will all look far more realistic when the leaves
are on. and the idea of a platform nestled in the center of the
branches is every tree-house builder's dream.
If the sub branches reach out far enough they might connect in the
center, twines around each other and creating a vast hall! That would
be the location for the Cammoran Throne!
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06.04.2008 16:20 |
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FLESH
Archduke
Registration Date: 23.06.2006
Posts: 2,824
Location: Ireland
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I was thinking about what the platforms where the revelries are held
are made of. Surely it can't be wood. Can it be that they were grown?
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06.04.2008 16:30 |
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raggidman
Prince
Registration Date: 06.01.2006
Posts: 3,317
Location: where my heart is
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Was thinking about platforms earlier today too
came up with these thoughts
- Insect farming for their chitiin +
- The use of layered 'silk' and insect building goo
consider that termites build towers
bees create wax incubation structures
ants dig tunnels etc
What is needed is an insectophile who really wants to get creative!
By gooing together plates of chitin with spyder-silk you might create a
formidably strong surface. but you would need to have vast numbers of
the blighters producing.
background
Maybe what happened in the War with Elsweyr is that the Khajiit
disturbed these insects with their burnings and so the Khajiit found
themselves fighting the insect 'soldiers' or 'guards' ... and so they
smoked the hives or other dwellings and killed so many of the 'queens'
that the Bosmer had an impossible job in attempting to rebuild because
it would take years or decades to re-breed the insect populations, so
they called in the Imperial Building Commission.
And so your spider-caves would become very important Windy!
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06.04.2008 18:27 |
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JAAdventurer
First Knight
Registration Date: 16.03.2008
Posts: 130
Location: Not here, but not really over there either.
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Alright:
1) Who, may I ask, is RW, so that I may PM him?
2) I'm gonna keep playing with the model I have so far, I might still be able to save it.
3) Great suggestions, everyone. I'll see what I can make of them.
Also, on the thought of platforms, A Dance in Fire had this little snippet:
Curled webs of moss stretched unevenly across the fork, forming a sharing
roof for several dozen small buildings.
Now, if the moss grew thick enough, it may serve as a platform.
EDIT: A bit of a progress report for you guys.
This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by JAAdventurer: 06.04.2008 19:41.
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06.04.2008 18:48 |
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FLESH
Archduke
Registration Date: 23.06.2006
Posts: 2,824
Location: Ireland
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Looking more realistic JAA
RW is Razorwing, sorry, I'm so used to using acronyms. Also, great find
on that snippet. Anyone who has played Morrowing, do you remember that
large crab building? It had several dwellings inside it. We could use
that as inspiration for this "Moss" that forms a shared roof for a
dozen or so buildings.
RM: Indeed, the Building Co. would have had at least something done in
VW. Also the High Elves I'd imagine had their go at Falinesti and other
cities.
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06.04.2008 20:03 |
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raggidman
Prince
Registration Date: 06.01.2006
Posts: 3,317
Location: where my heart is
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JAA - please don't put me on your list of enemies (I don't taste very
good barbaqued) although it looks more treeish it also looks less Graht
Oakish ...
I was very serious about the FAT trunk - nothing else would look real
once the true dimensions are revealed in-game. It has to be massive to
give that feel of massiveness. Forget any other shape, even an oil drum
would be too long. in fact it could be fatter than it is tall!
Have you seen new growth from a pollarded branch or tree? That is what
is needed for the branches. Your instincts were correct, but just not
extreme enough.
The branches do need to be Horizontal. That in addition to the
flowerlike branch arrangement would be splendid. Not 30 degrees - more
like 10 or 15 degrees max - straight out, then at the end a circle of
spokes poke out.
the clock arrangement
Some of the spokes go inwards, some downwards, and the biggest go
sideways and upwards. The sideways and inwards spokes are like streets.
And they may wander like a snake or a hosepipe. The upwards spokes have
one purpose to gain height before they also spread.
People will be shocked by how alien it looks, but there are many very
strange things to be seen in the plant world if you look at them with
fresh eyes.
The purpose of all this is twofold - to provide interior space and
light, and to provide lanes, streets and roads along which people can
walk and on which buildings can be created.
the flower arrangement
This would repeat your original trunk-top arrangement. Providing
another surface for a platform at the main branche's end. With on of
the spokes continuing upwards to emerger above the parent cluster, and
so on ...
This is your chance to create an entirely new kind of tree. In a way it is actually like a giant flower ...
This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by raggidman: 06.04.2008 20:40.
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06.04.2008 20:28 |
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JAAdventurer
First Knight
Registration Date: 16.03.2008
Posts: 130
Location: Not here, but not really over there either.
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Alright, time to start playing with ideas.
But First: Here is what I got with a bit of fooling around throughout
the day, before a headache left me indisposed for a couple of hours.
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07.04.2008 02:36 |
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Ja-Kha'jay
Marquise
Registration Date: 15.08.2006
Posts: 1,078
Location: New Zealand
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That is awesome. I can certainly see this shape being used for
Falinesti itself, even if this particular model is one of the
satellites. Well done
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What is the Lycanthrope, in the Eye of God? A cursed Beast? Or a Miracle?
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07.04.2008 04:04 |
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Mormacil
Herma-Mora the Woodland Man
Registration Date: 15.08.2006
Posts: 2,250
Location: Netherlands
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For the first image in your last post I suggest to make the outer
branches a bit higher so you can create a bit of outer walls with the
buildings,bit like the Telvanni housing 
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07.04.2008 11:04 |
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windsurfer
Seigneur
Registration Date: 03.10.2006
Posts: 639
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07.04.2008 16:48 |
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FLESH
Archduke
Registration Date: 23.06.2006
Posts: 2,824
Location: Ireland
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Is it safe to say that all Graht-Oaks have a width half of their
height? Going off of Falinestis description of being 1 mile tall and
half a mile wide.
Now for comments.
Your first pic (tree): The trunk seems to get too thin too soon, right
after the branches start coming out of it. Also it has a bit too much
disturbance in it after the branches.
Second pic (branch): I get it's rough, but just to re-emphasise some points made earlier, a bit too uniform.
Third Image: Very regular, trunk doesn't continue, basicly you've heard it before
Keep up the good work, you're getting there
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07.04.2008 17:45 |
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raggidman
Prince
Registration Date: 06.01.2006
Posts: 3,317
Location: where my heart is
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heh - I like the trunk conformation though it might be more vertical,
it could work for the satellites that are not as massive as Falinesti.
bu that comes later. Not now.
On the other hand I am not so worried by the regularity of the branches
but rather that the branches seem too massive for that width of trunk
... in fact the Branches are a 'fatter' more convex shape than the
trunk - which seems not so useful? Not now.
People are wanting to 'SEE A TREE' before the seed is grown, and that
is what is making this difficult, so just keep their comments in
storage for later stages of refinement. Not now.
at myself - seems like I am contradicting myself - but really your work
is helping me to explain what I had in mind all along. You see the
spread-hand is flattened like a hand and that is more
anthropomorphising - wow - looong word that - am I lost in the trees of
my spelling? - where we need structure, then vegetable. So.... Not now.
Try rather smooth, rounded pipes (later you can flatten the top of
them. Forget about treeishness at this stage. Just do plain geometrical
pipe forms without any tapering and let the sheer massiveness of
Falinesti take care of the requirement for building space! But .... not
now.
PS I also like the one that JKJ likes - but ...?
Try sketching a stick drawing of the structure if you like. but ... follow these steps:
Now concentrate on the basic geometry and physics. 
You need to grow these shapes from practicality and need, rather than
from fancy. If you can find that essential structure, the treeishness,
naturalness and the majesty will follow. Promise.
But you need to build that structure first so that you can visualise
the whole. In a way you need to build that structure in your mind, so
...
Try using you program to draw with single lines stick diagrams of your possible options:
Create a faint 3D surface (polygon or whatever) structure for the whole
volume with the trunk hight and width 1/3 the full height of the whole
and the canopy a basket on top,
Then draw in darker lines for your branches and their splitting and so
forth. See how many steps to the surface of your faint basket give the
best feel.
Then try varying branch positions, angles etc
Try overlapping the branches at their furthest extent and then see if
they can comfortable grow longer within that surface etc.
Explore the limits in the simplest possible terms and you will find the possible
What you learn form this will be your tree template
This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by raggidman: 07.04.2008 20:21.
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07.04.2008 20:17 |
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JAAdventurer
First Knight
Registration Date: 16.03.2008
Posts: 130
Location: Not here, but not really over there either.
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 Okay, back to the drawing board. |
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Okay, I guess I'll restart, with all of this in mind.
1)I'll start with the basic geometry, and then make it a tree.
2) It starts with a cylindrical trunk 1/2 a mile by 1/2 a mile, and
then the branches start, but the trunk continues still upward.
3) If we make this thing massive and beautiful and not look like it's
made of cardboard, nobody will stop and say, "Wait, that can't be real.
(X) would make it unable to stand up." Of course it isn't real! This is
a game!
4) I found the largest model file sizes from Vanilla Oblivion. A test
interior (which may be the one used in-game) for cloud ruler temple has
around 27,000 triangles and is almost 3MB in size.
Final Note: "but ...?"
I'm assuming you are wondering what I
was up to with that? Just some practice with treeishness. It had no
real purpose. |
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07.04.2008 23:43 |
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raggidman
Prince
Registration Date: 06.01.2006
Posts: 3,317
Location: where my heart is
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08.04.2008 00:22 |
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JAAdventurer
First Knight
Registration Date: 16.03.2008
Posts: 130
Location: Not here, but not really over there either.
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It says "At a mile tall and half as wide, it was the most magnificent thing Scotti had ever seen."
And I'm just playing with ideas leading up to and building up for Falinesti.
EDIT: Alright, I've decided to back off from working on one big model,
as raggidman has suggested. Instead, I'm gonna be working on a few
practice models to get the different aspects of Falinesti right, and
then tackle the whole thing. Also, I'm going to try to work on models
for a few smaller things that this project needs (Mormy, maybe you
could make me a few concept art pieces to make clutter off of).
This tree is a big deal, and, having only been modeling for a couple of
months, I can't hit the whole thing head-on and expect to get anywhere.
(I wonder why I haven't thought of this sooner?)
Sorry to waste so many pages of this thread on mere practice and almost hijacking it.
JAAdventurer
This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by JAAdventurer: 08.04.2008 01:51.
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08.04.2008 01:04 |
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raggidman
Prince
Registration Date: 06.01.2006
Posts: 3,317
Location: where my heart is
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You have not hijacked anything JAA - you have made important contributions.
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16.04.2008 13:13 |
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Dephenistrator
Guardian
Registration Date: 14.03.2008
Posts: 68
Location: In a dark corner, before my computer
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Not being an expert animator as you guys I have only one bit of possible input for you.
Since size has been a problem, I would make it much smaller so it can be initially done, then scale it in the editor.
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16.04.2008 21:17 |
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I am truly happy I am not about to be barbied
Starting with Falinesti?