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Social and Political Structure of Skyrim

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Krisi-_
Archduke

Registration Date: 27.06.2006
Posts: 1,532
Location: Norway

quote:

Originally posted by The Old Ye Bard
Snip

Please don't talk like that.. It's easy to be counted for offensive, witch a moderator and mod leader shouldn't be...

And instead of locking a tread of witch may make something good, you could always split it..

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03.11.2006 19:20

The Old Ye Bard
Princess

Registration Date: 25.05.2006
Posts: 3,396

quote:

Originally posted by Siesta Guru
go have a look at post 1 toyb, seems clear to me that siegfried talked about it first, not that it matters though

Oh, still doesn't matter as it looks like it was an idea e came up with on the spot with no Lore background Wink

So the Moot will briefly come about during the MQ then disolve, sort of like an emergency council. What would be really cool if the Witch Queen "disrupted" the final meting and killed everyone, will the PCs controls where disabled then the PC gets to face her as a boos Yes

03.11.2006 19:23

Psychotic
Jarl of Skyrim

Registration Date: 30.07.2006
Posts: 3,420
Location: Sheogorath's Realm

quote:

Originally posted by The Old Ye Bard

quote:

Originally posted by Siesta Guru
go have a look at post 1 toyb, seems clear to me that siegfried talked about it first, not that it matters though

The details of that will have to be decided by Siegfried as he is writing the MQ.

03.11.2006 19:26

Skot the Sanguine
Knight

Registration Date: 11.10.2006
Posts: 93
Location: New York, USA

WIth regards to the Huskarls, wasn't there more than one for a chieftan...as in the entire Honor Guard being called Huskarls? I know Nord lore isn't exactly the same as the Norse and Saxons of history but it is obviously based off it. I was under the impression that the so-called champion of any chieftan would be his Shieldbearer or Swordbearer (just like Stuhn was the Shieldbearer of Shor).

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03.11.2006 23:10

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The Old Ye Bard
Princess

Registration Date: 25.05.2006
Posts: 3,396

quote:

Originally posted by Skot the Sanguine
WIth regards to the Huskarls, wasn't there more than one for a chieftan...as in the entire Honor Guard being called Huskarls? I know Nord lore isn't exactly the same as the Norse and Saxons of history but it is obviously based off it. I was under the impression that the so-called champion of any chieftan would be his Shieldbearer or Swordbearer (just like Stuhn was the Shieldbearer of Shor).

One Huskarl per village/town, the Honour guard will remain being called honour guard and shieldbearers where more like squires.

03.11.2006 23:13

Danmako
First Knight

Registration Date: 25.10.2006
Posts: 59
Location: Australia...MATE

HEY HEY!

Cool, so it is agreed......i like the honour guard with the Huskarl leader, makes it easy to write for

Yes, in Nordic culture I believe the Huskarl was the name given to the warriors in the role of house guard

Are we definitely cemented on Baron-King? I just think it is a mouthful and Jarl just sounds more nordy (there I go again....nordy), or is there a title in literature lore somewhere with a contempory name for nord nobility

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Danmako....The man with no name

05.11.2006 13:56

Psychotic
Jarl of Skyrim

Registration Date: 30.07.2006
Posts: 3,420
Location: Sheogorath's Realm

In lore the rulers of Holds are called kings and barons, but because there is no mention of a difference between Nordic kings and Nordic barons we decided to merge those titles into the title of Baron-King.

So it's all in lore, we just patched up the holes a bit to make it work.

05.11.2006 17:10

Danmako
First Knight

Registration Date: 25.10.2006
Posts: 59
Location: Australia...MATE

Thanks for that, clears it up.....what about priests? I know they prefer the dragon god Ysmir, what does religion have to do with it all?

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Danmako....The man with no name

05.11.2006 17:15

Psychotic
Jarl of Skyrim

Registration Date: 30.07.2006
Posts: 3,420
Location: Sheogorath's Realm

Info on the Nordic pantheon can be found here.

The closest thing to Nordic priests are shamans, and the closest thing to a church is the Order of Oak and Thorn (Skyrim's shaman faction).

05.11.2006 17:19

Siegfried
Archduke

Registration Date: 07.03.2006
Posts: 2,598
Location: With Your Mom...

Nord Religious leaders are Shamans and Druids. The "Church", so to speak, of Skyrim, is called the Order of Oak and Thorn. Basically its a big band of Shamans.

05.11.2006 17:19

Psychotic
Jarl of Skyrim

Registration Date: 30.07.2006
Posts: 3,420
Location: Sheogorath's Realm

quote:

Originally posted by Siegfried
Nord Religious leaders are Shamans and Druids. The "Church", so to speak, of Skyrim, is called the Order of Oak and Thorn. Basically its a big band of Shamans.

Ha, beat you to it!

05.11.2006 17:21

Danmako
First Knight

Registration Date: 25.10.2006
Posts: 59
Location: Australia...MATE

So how does Ysmir figure in this? Is he the head figure.....am I wasting time here, its in the library isn't it

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Danmako....The man with no name

05.11.2006 17:24

Psychotic
Jarl of Skyrim

Registration Date: 30.07.2006
Posts: 3,420
Location: Sheogorath's Realm

quote:

Originally posted by Danmako
So how does Ysmir figure in this? Is he the head figure.....am I wasting time here, its in the library isn't it

Ysmir is just the Nordic version of Talos, nothing more.

05.11.2006 17:34

The Old Ye Bard
Princess

Registration Date: 25.05.2006
Posts: 3,396

Well actually I think the Order of Oak and thorn will have to be rethinked as in Lore the Nordic gods are worshiped seperately, unlike the Nine divines of Cyrodiil.

05.11.2006 19:11

Siegfried
Archduke

Registration Date: 07.03.2006
Posts: 2,598
Location: With Your Mom...

quote:

Originally posted by The Old Ye Bard
Well actually I think the Order of Oak and thorn will have to be rethinked as in Lore the Nordic gods are worshiped seperately, unlike the Nine divines of Cyrodiil.

So basically you're saying its like how in ancient Greece Athens worshipped Athena and Sparta worshipped Ares? I don't however remember ever reading in lore how worshipping them seperately was a big deal, and I've done my homework.

But supposing that is the case we can always have the Order of Oak and Thorn be devoted to 3 more major deities, say Ysmir, Akatosh, and Kyne or something. The alternative would be to have each hold have a patron deity, and the local Order of Oak and Thorn handles religious rights for that deity.

05.11.2006 21:20

Psychotic
Jarl of Skyrim

Registration Date: 30.07.2006
Posts: 3,420
Location: Sheogorath's Realm

quote:

Originally posted by Siegfried

quote:

The alternative would be to have each hold have a patron deity, and the local Order of Oak and Thorn handles religious rights for that deity.

I like that idea, but it's not something that has to be over-annunciated, Nords from different holds should still respect all the other gods. Every city in Cyrodiil has a cathedral devoted to one of the divines, this would be something similar.

05.11.2006 22:21

Danmako
First Knight

Registration Date: 25.10.2006
Posts: 59
Location: Australia...MATE

My original interest arose from talking to Cirroc the Redguard healer in the chapel of Bruma, who said they were trying to draw the local Nords away from their heathen dragon god Ysmir and into the worship of the nine divines.....

This is what made me think of Ysmir as seperate and that the nords are in general lax towards the nine

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Danmako....The man with no name

06.11.2006 06:38

The Old Ye Bard
Princess

Registration Date: 25.05.2006
Posts: 3,396

quote:

Originally posted by Psychotic

quote:

Originally posted by Siegfried

quote:

The alternative would be to have each hold have a patron deity, and the local Order of Oak and Thorn handles religious rights for that deity.

In high rock aswell they don't worship the nine divines as a whole, they don't even count Talos as a god, or even have a substitute for him.

06.11.2006 08:23

Siegfried
Archduke

Registration Date: 07.03.2006
Posts: 2,598
Location: With Your Mom...

Well, they worship different interpretations of the Cyrodillic gods, and not all of them either. For example Akatosh is viewed somewhat negatively by Nords because as he is time he is also death, the "World Eater".

06.11.2006 21:21

The Old Ye Bard
Princess

Registration Date: 25.05.2006
Posts: 3,396

quote:

Originally posted by Siegfried
Well, they worship different interpretations of the Cyrodillic gods, and not all of them either. For example Akatosh is viewed somewhat negatively by Nords because as he is time he is also death, the "World Eater".

I am aware of that but it is not what I was getting at Wink

07.11.2006 03:47

Danmako
First Knight

Registration Date: 25.10.2006
Posts: 59
Location: Australia...MATE

Cool, so Ysmir is a "dragon god"

Interesting that it also the name of a late Merethic era god-hero also known as Harrald and Hans the Fox...on purpose or not I wonder?

Anyway, I will check out the organisation of the Skyrim church, religion being such an important part of a society and all

Oh, and the Moot can be called, there just needs to be no direct heir to the throne.....leads to some intriguing thoughts Yes

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Danmako....The man with no name

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Danmako: 08.11.2006 15:24.

08.11.2006 14:41

Psychotic
Jarl of Skyrim

Registration Date: 30.07.2006
Posts: 3,420
Location: Sheogorath's Realm

quote:

Originally posted by Danmako
Oh, and the Moot can be called, there just needs to be no direct heir to the throne.....leads to some intriguing thoughts Yes

There hasn't been a legitimate heir to the throne of Skyrim for a long time... not a problem. Pleased

08.11.2006 18:51

The Old Ye Bard
Princess

Registration Date: 25.05.2006
Posts: 3,396

quote:

Originally posted by Psychotic

quote:

Originally posted by Danmako
Oh, and the Moot can be called, there just needs to be no direct heir to the throne.....leads to some intriguing thoughts Yes

There hasn't been a legitimate heir to the throne of Skyrim for a long time... not a problem. Pleased

But that is because Skyrim hasn't been united in a long time. There probably is still a strong line of Kings who have a right to claim the throne.

08.11.2006 19:14

Psychotic
Jarl of Skyrim

Registration Date: 30.07.2006
Posts: 3,420
Location: Sheogorath's Realm

quote:

Originally posted by The Old Ye Bard
But that is because Skyrim hasn't been united in a long time. There probably is still a strong line of Kings who have a right to claim the throne.

There is no lore to support that however. As far as we know the line of kings might have ended or been exterminated.

08.11.2006 20:03

Siegfried
Archduke

Registration Date: 07.03.2006
Posts: 2,598
Location: With Your Mom...

quote:

Originally posted by Psychotic

quote:

Originally posted by The Old Ye Bard
But that is because Skyrim hasn't been united in a long time. There probably is still a strong line of Kings who have a right to claim the throne.

There is no lore to support that however. As far as we know the line of kings might have ended or been exterminated.

Are we positive? If there is the possibility of long lost kings, its something thats always fun for questlines.

08.11.2006 22:06

Psychotic
Jarl of Skyrim

Registration Date: 30.07.2006
Posts: 3,420
Location: Sheogorath's Realm

quote:

Originally posted by Siegfried

quote:

Originally posted by Psychotic

quote:

Originally posted by The Old Ye Bard
But that is because Skyrim hasn't been united in a long time. There probably is still a strong line of Kings who have a right to claim the throne.

There is no lore to support that however. As far as we know the line of kings might have ended or been exterminated.

Are we positive? If there is the possibility of long lost kings, its something thats always fun for questlines.

Well I haven’t seen any lore on it, but everything is possible. Though a "find the heir" quest sounds too much like the OB MQ.

08.11.2006 22:08

Siegfried
Archduke

Registration Date: 07.03.2006
Posts: 2,598
Location: With Your Mom...

quote:

Originally posted by Psychotic

quote:

Originally posted by Siegfried

quote:

Originally posted by Psychotic

quote:

Originally posted by The Old Ye Bard
But that is because Skyrim hasn't been united in a long time. There probably is still a strong line of Kings who have a right to claim the throne.

There is no lore to support that however. As far as we know the line of kings might have ended or been exterminated.

Are we positive? If there is the possibility of long lost kings, its something thats always fun for questlines.

Well I haven’t seen any lore on it, but everything is possible. Though a "find the heir" quest sounds too much like the OB MQ.

Perhaps rather than having a find there heir, we could have some kind of imposter show up, and the questline centers around finding out about him and the truth.

08.11.2006 22:11

Psychotic
Jarl of Skyrim

Registration Date: 30.07.2006
Posts: 3,420
Location: Sheogorath's Realm

quote:

Originally posted by Siegfried
Perhaps rather than having a find there heir, we could have some kind of imposter show up, and the questline centers around finding out about him and the truth.

That sounds cool.

08.11.2006 22:14

Danmako
First Knight

Registration Date: 25.10.2006
Posts: 59
Location: Australia...MATE

....and hence bring on "the MOOT"!!!!!!!

WOO HOO Dancing Banana

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Danmako....The man with no name

09.11.2006 05:36

Psychotic
Jarl of Skyrim

Registration Date: 30.07.2006
Posts: 3,420
Location: Sheogorath's Realm

Moved to the lore section of the forum as this can now be considered as official Skyrim fan lore. Yes

01.12.2006 18:03

Earendur Surion
Journeyman

Registration Date: 14.06.2006
Posts: 18
Location: Itinerant Count of Pendale Estate

In organizing a political structure, this screams for a "keep it simple stupid" KISS. However, it should have a bit more depth that the rural aristocratic count government in Cyrodiil.

The dividing line between Kings, Barons, Chieftains, and Baron-Kings is often murky at best. Why not use a traditional feudal structure?

King (if you decide to have any one figure that governs Skyrim), then Barons(Earls, or Thanes if you prefer those titles), ruling over the castles and cities.

Lastly, if you choose to implement towns like Hackdirt (ie about 6 families, an inn, a general store, a chapel, and possibly a minor quest), you could have some sort of Knightly class with a simple title like "Sir" who has the biggest house in town. The Knight (or whatever equivalent title is more suitable) would be a capable though a non noble (or at the bottom of the food chain of the nobility, so to speak) fighter.

10.12.2006 07:37

Psychotic
Jarl of Skyrim

Registration Date: 30.07.2006
Posts: 3,420
Location: Sheogorath's Realm

The traditional feudal structure would fit better in High Rock.

I don't think the current structure is too complicated.
-The council (The Moot) rules Skyrim and the Justiciar presides over the council.
-The Baron-Kings (who make up the council) rule over the Holds and the capital cities of the Holds.
-The Chieftains rule over castles/towns/villages.

*Thane is just an unofficial title given to a powerful Baron-King.
*Jarl is a title of respect given to a war leader.

10.12.2006 23:23

Earendur Surion
Journeyman

Registration Date: 14.06.2006
Posts: 18
Location: Itinerant Count of Pendale Estate

quote:

Originally posted by Psychotic
The traditional feudal structure would fit better in High Rock.

I don't think the current structure is too complicated.
-The council (The Moot) rules Skyrim and the Justiciar presides over the council.
-The Baron-Kings (who make up the council) rule over the Holds and the capital cities of the Holds.
-The Chieftains rule over castles/towns/villages.

*Thane is just an unofficial title given to a powerful Baron-King.
*Jarl is a title of respect given to a war leader.

Councils are so boring. Single rulers have so much more...flare and personality. For instance, compare COunt Skingrad with the Elder council.

Council: Today we have proposition 24a, restrict the sale of ale on Sundays, allowing ale to be sold only between the hours of 12 noon and 6 p.m. All in favor, say 'Aye". ....Surprise, surprise, a unanimous vote. 24 a passes.

King: Summon my horse! Muster my army! We're going to war! For honor and Glory! Captain....send scouts to garner women and ale for our army!

11.12.2006 03:17

Psychotic
Jarl of Skyrim

Registration Date: 30.07.2006
Posts: 3,420
Location: Sheogorath's Realm

quote:

Originally posted by Earendur Surion

quote:

While I see your point, lore is lore... and the lore says that it has been a long time since Skyrim has had a single ruler. The last ruling body of Skyrim (as a complete province) that is recorded in lore is The Moot. Introducing a single ruler to Skyrim would require making changes of huge proportions to the main story of the mod.
If a story of a ruler rising to power is included, it will have to be a part of the main quest... and the MQ is centered around something completely different. If a King figure is introduced to the MQ it would make the MQ look too much like the Oblivion MQ.

Another factor is that The Empire would never allow a single ruler to rise to power in Skyrim as such a figure (if not an imperial puppet) would represent a big threat to the stability of The Empire (because of the Nordic tendency to conquer stuff).

There will be rulers who will be cool even if they are not the rulers of the whole Skyrim province, you can be sure about that. Yes

11.12.2006 03:35

The Old Ye Bard
Princess

Registration Date: 25.05.2006
Posts: 3,396

quote:

Originally posted by Psychotic

quote:

Originally posted by Earendur Surion

quote:

We have already dicussed this, and we came to the conclusion that the Moot would come around during the MQ, but currently (And which lore states) is that the Holds rule themselves seperately, however Winterhold is still viewed as the capitol of Skyrim.

11.12.2006 03:47

Earendur Surion
Journeyman

Registration Date: 14.06.2006
Posts: 18
Location: Itinerant Count of Pendale Estate

Hmm, why even have a counsel? WHy not just have regional barons rule their parts of skyrim (possibly annoying their neighbors with raids and insults regarding their mothers), with one baron being a first-among-equals?

if you do implement a council, atleast make sure their seats have a rear end in them at some point, unlike the elder council.

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Earendur Surion: 11.12.2006 04:18.

11.12.2006 04:17

Psychotic
Jarl of Skyrim

Registration Date: 30.07.2006
Posts: 3,420
Location: Sheogorath's Realm

quote:

Originally posted by Earendur Surion
Hmm, why even have a counsel? WHy not just have regional barons rule their parts of skyrim (possibly annoying their neighbors with raids and insults regarding their mothers), with one baron being a first-among-equals?

if you do implement a council, atleast make sure their seats have a rear end in them at some point, unlike the elder council.

The council will only come around as a part of the MQ as TOYB said, other then that the Holds are ruled separately... and don't worry it will be way cooler than the Elder Council.

After the events of OB Skyrim is still in a more or less stable state, but there will be a few conflicts between the Baron-Kings (The Rift and The Pale vs. White Hold... for starters.)

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Psychotic: 11.12.2006 13:55.

11.12.2006 13:54

hugie
Guardian

Registration Date: 25.11.2006
Posts: 32
Location: the netherlands

do you mean with Imperial Senate the Elder councill or something else?
however that list looks very cool i'm really get the "don't know how to describe" feeling". Dancing Banana

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when I walk over the water this afternoon, tomorrow the people will say: the Prime-minster can't swim.- Margret Thatcher

13.12.2006 16:56

Siesta Guru
Elder of Skyrim

Registration Date: 15.10.2006
Posts: 516
Location: Sleeping in a bar

Imperial Senate? Where did you read that?? Confused

I'm glad youve got the "don't know how to describe" feeling"

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ou av andanyammis Pleased

13.12.2006 17:14

hugie
Guardian

Registration Date: 25.11.2006
Posts: 32
Location: the netherlands

Baron-Kings:
Each Hold (except for the Pale) is ruled by a Baron-King. These lesser Kings command the armies of their hold, take a portion of the taxes from each village within their hold, mediate disputes between villages, pass laws, hold a seat in the --> Imperial Senate <--, as well as a seat in the Council (name pending) that rules over Skyrim, and handle other miscellaneous Kingly affairs. Their power is checked however by the Chieftains within their territory, who hold the power to veto laws the Baron-King passes as well as the power to overthrow him and appoint a new King.

and I found a way to describe it the feeling: the TES feeling. really just when I started oblivion up for the first time

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when I walk over the water this afternoon, tomorrow the people will say: the Prime-minster can't swim.- Margret Thatcher

13.12.2006 17:33

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