A Slave Smuggling Problem

[Dugray]

Alright please excuse my shoddy artistry, me and my tablet are still rusty, but this is how I view the entry to the dune area. The wooden pillars support the weight of the sand over head to make a sort of tunnel (I guess they could paint the pillars a sandy color to prevent people from noticing it right away, and it also gives room for the caravans to come in and out without going over the dunes. The actual area is dome like in it's appearance with the dunes forming a dome around it to protect it from the wind and from being seen from afar. The dunes do not have to be very high, but they should be wide enough to provide room for the entire camp and structure. Also, to get the slaves outside of the province unnoticed I say they have found a way to tunnel great tunnels outside of the province which goes far underground and leads to Morrowind, or other smaller slaver outposts to avoid detection. (I'm sorry the art sucks, I need to get my scanner set up again.)

Dugray has attached these images (downsized versions):

Dune1.jpg (140 KB) | Dune2.jpg (262 KB)

[raggidman]

Maybe you could create a crescent 'Sandwall' between the tunnel entrance and the dune/s behind... dunes do move when the wind blows, which is why desert dwellers use Tents? Unless the site is an Oasis = more sense. Maybe a previously undiscovered Oasis deep in the desert. Ther ethe plant Life and extra moisture would make the dunes more stable...

Tunnels???? Created by a slaving operation? Work their sales commodities to death? Nah.

But if there is a Huge Under-Desert digging animal maybe... However, but it feels a tiny bit too much like making things up for the sake of convenience? Wanna create a new animal? There are smaller creatures in desert areas that dig tunnels in RL deserts.

[DragoonWraith]

First, the Great House most interested in slavery is House Dres. But apparently they're doing very well in Helseth Morrowind, so they must not mind the slavery thing too much, they must be adapting with the times. The Telvanni are apparently the Dunmeri Oblivion Gate Special Forces, running around shutting them. I don't think they even cared too much about slaves, or much of anything else, for that matter. Redoran and Indoril are dying and never used many slaves anyway. Hlaalu's doing well along with Dres, so they're not likely to be engaged in illegal slaving expeditions.

In all, I don't see many candidates for any large scale operations. And Akavir? Akavir is a long way out there, definitely outside the range of a provincial organization suddenly criminalized and without demand.

It was a good idea, but my opinion is that Helseth killed it when he freed the slaves.

[raggidman]

DragoonWraith

The slavery business has always been highly lucrative, which is how such evil practices persist even in present day RL...

No one is going to tell the Telvanni they cannot have what they want, they are a law unto their own desires - there are still slaves in Telvanni Towers! Remember how Necromancy was outlawed in Morrowind, and the practitioners shunned - that did not stop the Telvanni.

Akavir is no further than the breadth of the Atlantic I am sure...

There is a character called Vaniken R'i in Reich Parkeep who apparently is of Akaviri descent, and might be an Akaviri spy. He has a wine store and vinyard. Does he communicate with Akavir - maybe he would be involved in such an operation - to provide slave breeding stock for spies as well as menials and workers.

Have a word with Razorwing, maybe he has ideas about what could be...that would not require direct links...

Hlaalu is Helseth's toy, but Helseth has far Darker connections...remember the goblins in Mournhold - if it suited he would go against his own edict. Maybe he made the edict to protect his own slaving operations against competition? Maybe that edict is an attack against Dres.

Dres - the Vampire House??? They need 'cattle' so the top people want slaves and always will.

Suggest that when you take the above into consideration there is room for at least one quest...and of course the moral dilemmas that come with it...

[DragoonWraith]

Originally posted by raggidman

The slavery business has always been highly lucrative, which is how such evil practices persist even in present day RL...

Who's doing it, then? Hlaalu and Dres are happy with things the way they are, unlikely they're breaking the rules. Indoril and Redoran are in shambles, I don't think they can. Telvanni's busy shutting Oblivion Gates, and I don't think they very much care. About anything, really.

No one is going to tell the Telvanni they cannot have what they want, they are a law unto their own desires - there are still slaves in Telvanni Towers! Remember how Necromancy was outlawed in Morrowind, and the practitioners shunned - that did not stop the Telvanni.

Of course, there is little question of Telvanni's ability. I question Telvanni's desire for slaves. You won't be taking the slaves they already have, but the Telvanni mage lords are all rather pre-occupied with themselves, and they are all the power in the House. I don't see any large-scale slaving corporations in Sadrith Mora, just the single slave seller. Telvanni are consumers, not producers, of slaves. Without slaves, I think they'd find it easier to do without than to get more - after all, they don't have large plantations, their slaves are merely servants. Easier to just pay some servant a pitiful wage than to finance a full-scale slavery operation.

Akavir is no further than the breadth of the Atlantic I am sure...

There is a character called Vaniken R'i in Reich Parkeep who apparently is of Akaviri descent, and might be an Akaviri spy. He has a wine store and vinyard. Does he communicate with Akavir - maybe he would be involved in such an operation - to provide slave breeding stock for spies as well as menials and workers.

Have a word with Razorwing, maybe he has ideas about what could be...that would not require direct links...

Akavir is not unreachable. But it is difficult. It takes empire-level financing. That means the Tsaesci can do it (they have some form of unified government over there), and the Cyrodiils can do it. I doubt, however, that some Dunmer slave smuggling operation could do it.

Hlaalu is Helseth's toy, but Helseth has far Darker connections...remember the goblins in Mournhold - if it suited he would go against his own edict. Maybe he made the edict to protect his own slaving operations against competition? Maybe that edict is an attack against Dres.

Dres - the Vampire House??? They need 'cattle' so the top people want slaves and always will.

Suggest that when you take the above into consideration there is room for at least one quest...and of course the moral dilemmas that come with it...

No House in Morrowind is anyone's toy. The Houses are independent, powerful, and proud. Hlaalu may be backing Helseth, but that is because he is Hlaalu. And they will disown him if he pisses them off enough. Currently, however, Helseth and Hlaalu seem to be seeing very much eye-to-eye.

Of course, Helseth is the greatest schemer Tamriel has ever seen. He is cunning and he is without shame. His ambition is everything, and he has the skills to achieve it. He suffers from none of the typical vices of ambition - impatience, overconfidence, arrogance - he knows who and what he is, what he wants, what he needs to do it, and exactly how to get what he needs. He is very capable of just about anything, given an oppurtunity. He is also quite adept at creating oppurtunities where there were none. Nothing can be said to be too much for him.

However, for the moment, anti-slavery is what he wants. He wants to gain the support of the Empire and its citizens, and he wants to please Hlaalu. Hlaalu, of course, wants the Empire happy so it can trade more freely.

As for House Dres, I will admit I know little about them. They had been described as Indoril's lapdog, but now Indoril is waning and Dres is stepping into the limelight. There have been rumors of Vampires in the highest echelons of the House. These certainly seem to be true, but there is no proof. However, at that level of power, you don't need slaves for cattle. People can just... disappear... their cries never extending past their cells. Very much within Dres's power, and very much easier than financing a smuggling operation.

[KuKulzA]

House Dres was also the last Great House to settle... they are also th most traditional...
their names are similar to the Ashlander names, long and strange, and somewhat different from House-folk names
they were slavers, but mostly because of their wars with Argonians and have taken prisoners as slaves... but that helped to support a good agriculture and so they engaged actively in slavery, earning the hate of both Argonians and Khajits and of course orcs and even men and other mer. They even had dealings with sloads who carried away many slaves in 'airships'.

they probably now use the former slaves as serfs and sharecroppers... "they have nothing but freedom"

House Dres follows Helseth because he promises them Indoril land, promises them power, and now they no longer have to ompete with Hlaalu, Helseth is married to a young Dres noblewoman, and so is also family with the Dres

[DragoonWraith]

Right, it seems to me that they have no interest in undermining Helseth's authority by blatantly ignoring his laws... and a full-scale slaver operation would be blatant. And I think it's too difficult a prospect for anything but a full-scale, house-level operation.

[raggidman]

Dragoonwraith: Must say your take on Helseth is persuasive, but I wonder how long a Dres-Hlaalu alliance lasts in the face of the Civil War brewing in Vvardenfell?

Do you really want to totally kill what could be a prime 'causus belli' in the Vvardenfell situation that could link the two mods together?

Things like slavery do NOT just die out, ever. But they do go underground, becoming harder to identify and trace. Until people believe that they have disappeared completely, but they are still there...

Did Helseth declare slavery illegal immediately? And what replaces slavery in the Dres coffers if so? Great Houses abhor a financial vacuum?

Your take on the Vampire situation might well be so, and that would be another potential flashpoint between Hlaalu and Dres. But you did make me wonder if, given Helseth's education with the Underking, Helseth's new Queen could be a Vampire? :evil grin:

Needless to say the argument re the Tsaesci remains - great powers need intelligence, and no price is too high. so since there has to be a conduit, why not include slavery? Not as a major activity, but perhaps as the last known surviving active cell. And the Sload connection sounds more than ominous. Just goes to show you can't keep serious villainy down!

[DragoonWraith]

Originally posted by raggidman
Dragoonwraith: Must say your take on Helseth is persuasive, but I wonder how long a Dres-Hlaalu alliance lasts in the face of the Civil War brewing in Vvardenfell?

Do you really want to totally kill what could be a prime 'causus belli' in the Vvardenfell situation that could link the two mods together?

Fair point. Definitely the most persuasive argument I've seen. I'll buy that it's worth our time to make this work. But it has to work, so we need to consider what I've brought up.

Things like slavery do NOT just die out, ever. But they do go underground, becoming harder to identify and trace. Until people believe that they have disappeared completely, but they are still there...

That is certainly true, but the large-scale plantation use of slaves would not be tenable, nor would the large slaver parties going to Elsweyr and Argonia, I should think. But I suppose it is not too great a stretch, and could be very good for a quest.

Did Helseth declare slavery illegal immediately? And what replaces slavery in the Dres coffers if so? Great Houses abhor a financial vacuum?

None of that information is available, but whatever it is, it's working - Dres is doing well. Personally, I'm somewhat incredulous - it seems totally bizarre. More information would be nice.

Your take on the Vampire situation might well be so, and that would be another potential flashpoint between Hlaalu and Dres. But you did make me wonder if, given Helseth's education with the Underking, Helseth's new Queen could be a Vampire? :evil grin:

I don't think Hlaalu would care much if the Dres-lords were vampires, as long as they were to Hlaalu's interest. Hlaalu never struck me as terribly moral-based. Redoran and Indoril would definitely care. Telvanni probably wouldn't even notice, and definitely wouldn't care if they did.

I'm apparently behind on Helseth lore here - he was taught by the Underking and married a Dres? I didn't know either... very interesting. I'm rather impressed by his education. Anyway, I don't think he'd marry a Vampire, surely the Dres must have some pretty girl sans the Dark Curse... they would need non-vampires anyway. Even if Helseth might be willing to marry a vampire if it furthered him (and I don't doubt it), I don't think it could help him - he'd have way too much trouble explaining why she's never out during the day, and if rumors started spreading, he'd be in trouble. I assume she is not a vampire.

Needless to say the argument re the Tsaesci remains - great powers need intelligence, and no price is too high. so since there has to be a conduit, why not include slavery? Not as a major activity, but perhaps as the last known surviving active cell. And the Sload connection sounds more than ominous. Just goes to show you can't keep serious villainy down!

As consumers both the Sload and the Tsaesci seem viable (the Sload certainly would, we know too little about the Tsaesci), but definitely not as a source of slaves. Both are too far away for the slavers to go to them - but both are powerful enough to go to the slavers. Though no one (supposedly) has seen either in a few hundred years, so....

[raggidman]

If you do like the idea of the 'other continental powers' collecting slaves from a last surviving remnant of the slavers, then do you actually need to show precisely who they are? It might be that the furthest you would have go on this line would be to show the existance of a middleman, with many dark hints... Just to add spice. And of course the mention of or hints of possible connections in other parts of our associated mods. So that it is there, but hard to pin down.

The education thing was someting I picked up in a quest when visiting the Court while playing Daggerfall. The Queen (who I remember as Barenziah) asked me to take a message to the Underking confirming that in accordance with a pact they had made She would be sending Her son (who I remember as Helseth) to Him as per His request to complete the son's education upon his 12th? birthday or early teen. What most impressed me about the 'little boy' was that every time I passed him in the Court I heard this dread moaning (as if he were one of the undead or a daedra himself.) That is why I decided to complete the quest - I speculated that the little prince was actually the product of a union between the Underking and Barenziah.