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KuKulzA · 01-30-2006, 08:36 PM,

Quote:Originally posted by Lady Nerevar
I?m not saying that these people were not around on vvardenfell (killed plenty of em back in the day), but what I am saying is that its unlikely that something like this would spring from out of the blue in the transition period between MW and OB, and it sure as hell didnt exist anywhere on tamriel before. I don?t think that any argonian that comes to Morrowing, land of legal slavery, telvani, and other obstacles for the beast folk, is smart enough to organize something. Heck, argonins want to get OUT of morrowind, not into it. Orcs... well, they are orcs. While it does make some sense that they want a base in the east, isolated, diseased, and hostile Vvardenfell is far from an ideal refuge. The goblin thing seems to make some sense I guess, but if they were traveling from blacklight, they would have landed in the west gash, on the west side of the island, not in the molag amur, on the southeast. You also mention telvani as helpers several times in the story. I know telvani, and they would not feed some slave to stop rebellion. They would shut him up with a fireball spell to make an example.

hmm... I will try to answer in order....
1. Orsinium is an example of where Orcs united many betmer in the northwest and there they made an semi-province... more like an over-populated city-state with a lot of the population actually extenting into the Wrothgarian and Dargontail Mts.
2. I do think Argonians are smart enough to manage a resistance... plus, how would they get home? they are up in Vvardenfell, escaped... and armed... but do you think they could make it past Dres lands? During the Arnesian War... many Argoniasn struck far into Dres lands... I think those who were captured were enslaved and those who escaped went back to Argonia if they were not too far north. The Argonians eventually lost the war... eventually, it took awhile... sparked by death of Roris who became a saint but probably involved alot of border skirmishes
3. Orcs.. see, Valenvaryon and many isolated palces where teeming with Orcs... if they want to go hoem by land, they can go through Skyrim or Cyrodiil... not too nice.. especially not Skyrim..... but many of them are Daedra worshippers staying on Vvardenfell... so where do ya want them to go? it is not an ideal refuge.... but if an orc is sick of all the poverty and war going on near Orsinium... he hears of a newly settled place called Vvardenfell were there are relatively a good population of orcs... he goes to see if he can found a new place for his kin... and he does... Valenvaryon... and he's been there for awhile... in TES3, Umug gro-Mashnar is an orc knight in Valenvaryon...
4. yes... but who livesin the West Gash? Redoran.... and what is the Redoran culture? warrior... and are the tired goblins going to fair well against an army of angry get-the-hell-off-my-land and warlike Redoran warriors? I don't think so... Molag Amur is far from friendly... but the Golbins don't need friendly... and Molag Amur only has a few fierce Ashlander tribes... that are nomadic and won't pose a consistent threat...
5. In TES3, as the rising star of the Telvanni you could choose whether to kill all of Eleel-Lei's followers an himself, OR free them... you get different rewards..... I think Uvirith freed them... nice guy..... Telvanni don't like bad slaves... but they liek good hirelings... almost as good... but they kill your enemies...
see the Telvanni aren't gonna necessarily LIKE the betmer... hell they look down on the Ashlanders... but they realize the necessity of allies...

batman · 01-31-2006, 03:19 AM,

Quote:Originally posted by KuKulzA

hmm... I will try to answer in order... snip ...but they realize the necessity of allies...

Quote:Originally posted by KuKulzA

EDIT: the large orange borders are just lands they hutn game in and roam.. not lands they control... they don't REALLY control any land...

yeah, i took most of what you say here for granted kukluza,

LN says that nothing like this have ever existed, it has,

LN says that argoninas aren't smart enough, i say thats not only an insult to argonians, but that it doesn't even matter, an orc started it, the argonians only need to hear about it,

LN agrees about the need and probability of an "orsinunim of the east"

LN says goblins would land in the west gash, i say they land whever their ship could take them, although i do agree we need more explanation...

LN says she knows telvanni, the trouble is, some of her old stuck-up telvanni are dead, most notably the leader, this is the new guard, who isn't troubled by old prejudices and blindness, only on expansion and survival

well yeah, all that seemed kind of obvious as i was reading the original posts...

KuKulzA · 01-31-2006, 04:08 AM,

Quote:Originally posted by batman

Quote:Originally posted by KuKulzA

hmm... I will try to answer in order... snip ...but they realize the necessity of allies...

Quote:Originally posted by KuKulzA

EDIT: the large orange borders are just lands they hutn game in and roam.. not lands they control... they don't REALLY control any land...

yeah, i took most of what you say here for granted kukluza,

LN says that nothing like this have ever existed, it has,

LN says that argoninas aren't smart enough, i say thats not only an insult to argonians, but that it doesn't even matter, an orc started it, the argonians only need to hear about it,

LN agrees about the need and probability of an "orsinunim of the east"

LN says goblins would land in the west gash, i say they land whever their ship could take them, although i do agree we need more explanation...

LN says she knows telvanni, the trouble is, some of her old stuck-up telvanni are dead, most notably the leader, this is the new guard, who isn't troubled by old prejudices and blindness, only on expansion and survival

well yeah, all that seemed kind of obvious as i was reading the original posts...

guys, don't let this escalate to flaming...
I knew this would be contreversial when I began introducing the idea, but I stuck to it...
I think it has happened... but not in the east... well everything has to start somewhere

I think LN has good reasons to believe it is improper... but we also have good reasosn to believe that it is a good possibility..
lets discuss it ...not insulting or the beginnings of insult

batman · 01-31-2006, 04:22 AM,

sorry if thats how it sounded, :poorme:

i used to be on my schools debate team and listing points comes naturally, didn't mean to sound flamish, in retrospect perhaps copy/paste is not a man's best friend :yes:

Ixidors Bane · 01-31-2006, 04:43 PM,

I think I've posted these quotes before, but I thought they would do some more good to see them again.

All quotes from TIL.

Quote:Okan-Shei, Argonian Male, Savant (lvl. 13).
Ebonheart, East Empire Company, first floor.

Betmeri...
Betmeri, or 'Beastmen,' were the aboriginal inhabitants of Tamriel. Each Beast race has its own distinctive accounts of the mythic era before the coming of Elves and Men; each Beast race is as culturally and physically distinct from one another as it is from Elven and Manish races.

The peaceful Khajiit and Argonian races are the most numerous and culturally advanced of the Beast races; the war-loving Orc tribes are relatively few in number and widely scattered, but notable as superior warriors and weapon crafters. Other smaller Beast races, like Goblins, Apemen, and Giants, are limited to mountainous areas in the west and north of Tamriel, and seldom encountered in the East.

Quote:Betmeri
The peaceful Khajiit and Argonian races are the most numerous and culturally advanced of the Beast races; the war-loving Orc tribes are relatively few in number and widely scattered, but notable as superior warriors and weapon crafters. Other smaller Beast races, like Goblins, Apemen, and Giants, are limited to mountainous areas in the west and north of Tamriel, and seldom encountered in the East.

[Additional information from Okan-Shei, the Argonian Savant.]
Betmeri, or 'Beastmen,' were the aboriginal inhabitants of Tamriel. Each Beast race has its own distinctive accounts of the mythic era before the coming of Elves and Men; each Beast race is as culturally and physically distinct from one another as it is from Elven and Manish races.

Quote:Betmeri ('beast people')
Betmeri, or 'Beastmen,' were the aboriginal inhabitants of Tamriel. Each Beast race has its own distinctive accounts of the mythic era before the coming of Elves and Men; each Beast race is as culturally and physically distinct from one another as it is from Elven and Manish races. The peaceful Khajiit and Argonian races are the most numerous and culturally advanced of the Beast races; the war-loving Orc tribes are relatively few in number and widely scattered, but notable as superior Warriors and weapon crafters. Other smaller Beast races, like Goblins, Apemen, and Giants, are limited to mountainous areas in the west and north of Tamriel, and seldom encountered in the East.
Lit.: The Annotated Anuad (TEST I2: 898).

Joe Venice · 01-31-2006, 05:48 PM,

About the Khajiit and Orcs; I was under the impression that they were infact altered (transformed? changed?) mer.
I believe the Khajiit were ancestors of wood elves changed by Azura (sp?)
And Orcs were Altmer who followed (Trinimac?) even after his mutilation into (Malacath?)

They would not be considered aboriginal betmer then? So that would leave goblins, apemen, and Argonians as the natives?

Excuse me if my train of thought is on the wrong track.

KuKulzA · 01-31-2006, 07:30 PM,

yes... sort of
after the great war of Lorkhan and the Aldmer and the Aedra... the Aedra and the Hist were the last and the first... the world was mostly land and these two kinds spread
however, beasts and beast-folk quickly evolved...

Khajits are Bosmer that were very feral in appearance and also influenced by Azura
Orcs were the followers of Trinimac before he was Malacath, and they still follow their god-warrior,now a Daedric Prince (not originally one)

Orcs and Khajit are not betmer in origin but are usually treated like them and have more an affinity with the betmer than with the men and mer that persucute them

Lady Nerevar · 01-31-2006, 08:23 PM,

i wasent saing that argonians are stupid, i was saing that a argonian who brings his people to vvardenfell in order to save them is not particularly smart (becuase of slavery, etc.)

heck, im not saing that you should not do this. im jsut trying to raise some points. sry if i sounded mean or something/

Daishi · 01-31-2006, 08:59 PM,

Even if, we didn't follow lore exactly, we actually had an original idea that has no base in lore... We could be possibly making lore for the future? Relying on the past helps, but making the future is what brings us forward. Anyways, more power to ya, Betmeri.
-Best Wishes from Vana 'diel.

KuKulzA · 02-01-2006, 01:38 AM,

well... not exactly saving his people by going to Morrowind... but look... I will make a sort of map...
this is the Arnesian War... sort of
1. the red dots are supposed to be population density but I really really screwed up
2. the grey arrows is the Dunmer military mobilization
3. the green arrows are the Argonian mobilization
4. as you will see, some will die, and some will be enslaved... but some will escape...
the question is, where will they go?

the Bitter Coast... more like their homeland.... their only easier route... and less Dunmer living in the large coastal swamps...
and also... Vvardenfell... most relatively isolated... Bitter Coast is not often traveled in much, the Ashlands are relatively uninhabited by slaving Dunmer since the Ashlanders had given up slavery....
plus, Eleel-Lei is an aggressive leader among Argonians... you saw him in the mine north of Tel Branora, he knew he would face the slow torture with magic that the Telvanni would offer.... but interestingly in the TES3 quest... you could CHOOSE whether to kill him... and to reflect the new generation of Telvanni, I think Uvirith DID NOT kill him... the newer Telvanni are more politically aggressive, more accepting of outlanders, and more willing to break the law...