Copyright status of mods

[Ibsen's Ghost]

This thread has nothing specifically to do with Black Marsh but morcroft recently raised this issue and it interested me. I'm sure I learned something about this in the past but didn't really enquire in any depth.

As I understand it, mods are something known to students of media as 'free creativity' but the term is problematic when you consider what is free and how free it is. We're free to create mods (that's what construction sets are there for) but how much of our mods do we really own? Do we own the intellectual copyright over our ideas? Or are we simply an unpaid branch of Bethesda undertaking marginal work on the fringes of their original concept?

If we do create something very original, how much of that original design are we able to use and get paid for? As we develop our work under the Elder Scrolls label, is everything that we do consumed by Bethesda and the gaming industry?

As mentioned elsewhere, I dislike working under the jurisdiction of lore since it shackles real creativity and yet often it combines with the lore and helps to create something startlingly original. This is an example of synergy at work or, in biological terms, symbiosis. If I were to do this (create an original idea blended with ES lore) and take it elsewhere, would I be in line to be prosecuted by Bethesda? Or would it just be a case of removing the context that relates to their creation i.e. everything to do with Tamriel?

It's a case of 'intellectual copyright' but the very idea of intellectual copyright seems a slippery one to my mind. Any thoughts in relation to these ramblings are welcome....

[Koniption]

Originally posted by Ibsen's Ghost
We're free to create mods (that's what construction sets are there for) but how much of our mods do we really own? Do we own the intellectual copyright over our ideas? Or are we simply an unpaid branch of Bethesda undertaking marginal work on the fringes of their original concept?

If one is a modeler, then we still own our original meshes and any self-made textures (textures made purely from scratch, and not from clipart or photos). Photos and pictures that have been classed as "public domain", are free for the whole public to use in any way, for free and without legal hurdles. I always try to use photos and pictures in the public domain, in my work.

As long as our meshes or textures, 1) are not gotten from any of Bethesda's nifs or dds textures or even just pieces of those nifs/dds used, and 2) the meshes and textures are made purely from scratch....then we modelers can even use those meshes and textures of ours in other games legally. An example of this is 100% custom meshes and textures made by Morrowind modders, being used in Oblivion, and vice versa. Bethesda does not seem to worry about nif/dds transfer, in this instance.

But, if the meshes or textures were whole, or in part, from a Bethesda nif/dds, then issues arise and people get in trouble.

If we do create something very original, how much of that original design are we able to use and get paid for? As we develop our work under the Elder Scrolls label, is everything that we do consumed by Bethesda and the gaming industry?

If I made a 100% custom mesh, and it was used in Blackmarsh, I can also use it in any other game mod I want to lend it to...but I don't think I'd ever get paid for it - because paying game developers and clients would want original work made for them and not a reused mesh. Having their own custom work made for them, means they can more logically charge buyers for the game the mesh is in, because the mesh was not previously some sort of freeware (in which case, buyers might complain about paying for stuff that was freeware to begin with, if they ever found out). Also, by not using a freeware mesh, the game developer can include their "Terms of Use" and "License Agreements" to say stuff like: "No part of this game maybe rehashed or distributed in whole or in part, etc, etc." It's makes things legally easier for them, in their License Agreements, and such.

If I were to do this (create an original idea blended with ES lore) and take it elsewhere, would I be in line to be prosecuted by Bethesda? Or would it just be a case of removing the context that relates to their creation i.e. everything to do with Tamriel?

If you took ES lore, whether blended with other lore or not, and used in another game series (a series that is not Elder Scrolls based), then you probably would be asking for trouble. It's something I'd avoid. Never use Elder Scrolls lore, that has been specifically made-up by the game developer itself, in other game canons.

If a modder made up lore, and that lore does not use any words or terms from the previously made Beth game developer lore, and therefore is rather generic, then you might be ok in using that "lore" or "story"/"ideas" in other games not of the Elder Scrolls series. But I say this cautiously, because the more detailed the self-made lore is from a modder, the more likely it is to be recognized as being based on "Elder Scrolls" stories/etc.

Koniption

PS - If anyone sees anything wrong with my reasoning, feel free to point out your ideas and research.

[Lady Nerevar]

unless you were to sell something, i doubt bethesda cares. plenty of other universes have been mixed in with bethesda's, and i believe there were several mods using TES lore for other games. derivative fan works are fine under copyright. However, if you were to develop a mythology for the argonians, you couldn't sell it without changing the identifying features (eg. the name "argonian") and even then its a bit of a cheap shot.

Actual content however is not ok to be distributed. As Koniption said, using models or textures from Oblivion anywhere but Oblivion is a big no-no.

according to the EULA, bethesda owns all mods [relating to the CS] completely.

[Xae]

.2 Legalities

4.2.1 Can I sell my mods?

No.


4.2.2 Can I use assets from previous Elder Scrolls Games?

No (answered to Silgrad team), unless you get a special permission from Bethesda...

Assets includes, but are not limited, to music, models and textures.


4.2.3 Can I use assets from other Games?

No, unless you obtain permission from the company (good luck!!!). You must have a proof of consent.


4.2.4 Can distribute assets I created?

Yes.


4.2.5 Will Bethesda become owner of the assets I created?

No. Bethesda only become owner of the ESP/ESM according to the license. The ownership of all artistic assets you included with your mods is unchanged. If you created the music, you still own the copyright (for example).

Taken from here.

One would think that it should officially stated by Bethesda somewhere exactly the full licensing information related to TES modding.

[Ibsen's Ghost]

Good points, folks.

It's nice to hear this from a modellers and sound composers point of view.

From a writer's point of view, I feel it's more complicated. In the past, I have worked on mods that are either entirely my own creation or adapt or interpret things that are made clear in terms of lore.

The point is that you can begin from the starting point of something that exists as core points in the lore of a game and, from that point on, unveil a whole raft of ideas that serves to expand on the original idea. This can be a whole backstory to a race, for example. However possible it is to rework the 'seed' of that idea (which belongs to the separate game), the fact remains that some things inevitably still bear the noticeable 'stamp' of that game's influence. If you then draw on other sources of inspiration, including some drawn from the same game then it rapidly becomes a complex act of narrative surgery to remove those features so that the story can exist independently and you will not have a lawsuit on your hands claiming ownership of intellectual property.

The thing is that it's pretty easy to copyright and trademark some names (which are quite tangible things) but ideas are more tricky, especially ideas that give birth to narratives and cannot exist without them. If, for example, I were to use an idea obviously drawn from a game and construct a narrative around it, would I be prosecuted? And if I were to write an ES storyline based upon my research of ES lore but with a large amount of my own interpretative work, would Bethesda have the rights to do a version of this work on their own terms with their much greater resources?

The modding world is, after all, the test tube of major games developers and it runs itself autonomously. Bethesda wouldn't create a construction set if they thought it would harm their chances of selling on the next project....yet I feel that what makes games great is not the 'next generation' technology that runs it but the concepts and ideas that make it unique.

From this, you could easily see yourself and what you do here on these forums as a guinea pig running round a wheel which is attached to a generator that powers Bethesda's offices...! =)

Now that used to be one of my biggest reservations about the modding scene...the idea that you enslave your creativity to an epistemological overlord. It's completely different from writing indepedent pieces of fiction as you basically work to fill in the gaps.

Even if you wanted to create an original storyline based on the ideas you worked on, you may have to do a hell of a lot of world building to get back to the point you were at when you formulated your killer idea....and by that point, some bugger has already got there ahead of you and stolen your idea or the games company has re-re-re-interpreted everything that's under their jurisdiction and come up with the supermega version of your ideas based of your own ideas combined with others drawn from modding project a, b and c. The fact is, modders are the factory workers and even though they may think they own the factory, the landlords are always watching what they're producing...and the factory exists on their land!

This makes for interesting reading for anyone interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property .

[Lady Nerevar]

i'm not sure where this assumption that bethesda gives a flying rat about what modders do is coming from, but its not true. bethesda has its own ideas and its own plans, and when it happens to be something a modder (or monkeytruther, etc.) has done its 95% coincidence and the other 5% are attributed (seen this happen). thinking your ideas will get stolen is completely unrealistic - beth barely knows about the projects its CS is being used for, and when they do its the barest of outlines. if you still feel uncomfortable working within the lore (which i find only helps creativity by giving it some bounds), you can have a mod that doesn't have anything to do with TES (plenty of those).

[Koniption]

One is either gonna have fun modding, or not. Having fun is the main point of modding, I believe.

If one keeps doting on the "could have", "should have", & "would have"...then you set yourself up for becoming disenchanted with the work you plan to do, or worse - the work you've already started.

So just have fun. Keep in mind there are some rules that need to be followed. But just have fun.

After all, one agreed to Beth's modding rules as soon as one first fired up a CS and made a plugin. If one didn't take the time to read the EULA before firing up the CS, then whose fault was that really?

Koniption

EDITED: so that Ibsen won't nuke me... :eek:

[Ibsen's Ghost]

Yes, I'm now fully aware they don't give a rat's ass and I'm not at all uncomfortable with all of this stuff anymore. I may have done in the early days when I began modding but not now. I just find the whole subject of intellectual copyright interesting. My post was to inspire debate rather than to ask for help or reassurance or something. Never mind....

I hate to be picky Koniption, but you just did something that is one of my petty hates. My students always write "could of / should of / would of". I won't go into the full explanation here but it's "could have / should have / would have".....it's weird little things like this that give me the jitters....I'm a language geek!

That's why I edit my own posts with care...I almost edited your post just because it hurt my poor sad little geek heart!

[Xae]

On a slightly related note, check this out. Reading it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside and I no longer feel completely alone in a world that is fast abandoning proper use of language.

[morcroft]

Well, I think that had better go up on your classroom's wall, Ibsen!

There's nothing of which I more thoroughly approve than properly punctuated profanity!