Dealing with the Khajiiti Forms

[The Old Ye Bard]

So there's been some on-and-off discussion about how to implement the Khajiiti forms for awhile now, so I thought I'd make a post outling how we're dealing with each type of form (for the sake of ease, grouped into similar forms that will be treated in the same way).


First thing to be addressed is the largest 'standard' forms ('standard' in this context meaing the forms that we can make as fully-functional Npcs, as opposed to creatures). There's been some problems with these in the past, as I know some modders have intentional made doorways larger to accommodate larger breeds, which we will not be doing from now on -the Khajiiti form/s you see in Oblivion are pretty much the largest 'standard' breed (and has been the breed seen in Redguard, Morrowind and Oblivion). The Cathay-Raht will only be slightly larger, by only an inch-or-two, so there's no need to upscale models for the use of Npcs.


Large 'standard' forms:

Suthay-Raht
Confirmed here by Douglas Goodall as being the breed in Reguard and Morrowind, I don't have a direct reference/quote, it can be assumed that the Khajiit in Oblivion are also Suthay-Raht (the legs being a game mechanic, as opposed to a topic of debatable lore). There will be no change with this variant, we'll just be using the one included in the stock game (possibly adding new hairstyles, and so forth, but no drastic changes to the form).

Cathay-Raht
1-3 inches taller than the Suthay-Raht, we'll be using a retexed version of the Suthay-Raht to look something reminiscent of a Jag...err, jaguar (not overly so, just to get the feeling of where the 'jaguar men' description of them comes from). Should have special 'beast feet' added to each new Npc instead of boots.

Ohmes-raht
A number of resources exist out there already for the 'Ohmes-raht' already, but we'll be creating our own so insure the highest quality (I'm aware Ja-Kha'jay has already done some concepts for facial tattoos). It will be an average-height race/form, shorter than Imperial, but slightly taller than a Bosmer (the Ohmes will be slightly shorter than a Bosmer). There should be 3 variants of facial tattoos (for each gender), meaning 3 races set up in the CS for the Ohmes-Raht, with 6 differnt textures).



Smaller 'standard' forms:

Suthay
A slightly retexed version of the of the Suthay-Raht (so their pattern is varied, but not to the point it looks like a totally differnt form, just enough that it doesn't look like a younger Suthay-Raht). The facial shape of the stock race/form should also be adjusted slightly. 1-3 Inches shorter than the Suthay-Raht. Should have special 'beast feet' added to each new Npc instead of boots.

Cathay
A slightly retexed version of the of the Cathay-Raht (so their pattern is varied, but not to the point it looks like a totally differnt form, just enough that it doesn't look like a younger Cathay-Raht). The facial shape of the race/form should also be adjusted slightly from the C-R. Between the Suthay-Raht and the Suthay in height. Should have special 'beast feet' added to each new Npc instead of boots.

Ohmes
Slightly shorter than the Bosmer, with differnt facial tattoos to the Ohmes-Raht (there should be 3 variants of facial tattoos (for each gender), meaning 3 races set up in the CS for the Ohmes, with 6 differnt textures).



Non-'Standard' Bipedal Forms:

Tojay-Raht
2-4 inches Shorter than an Ohmes. Needs a new model, with 'beast feet', based on either the scamp or the goblin animations/skeleton (or just whatever the modeler/animator finds works best). Clothing needs to be modeled aswell (possibly just corrected/retexed versions of stock clothing, new stuff can obviously be modeled too, rigged to suit the new mesh). Most of them will be just set up as creatures, and won't speak to the player, but given they border being on the right height for being suitable as talking Npcs, some can be set up as "creatures-as-npcs" (basically setting up the creature as armour/clothing, and assigning an Npc the Tojay-Raht's animations).

Tojay
1-3 inches shorter than the Tojay-Raht. Slight retex and downscale of the Tojay-Raht, treated pretty much exactly the same, except that there won't be any "creatures-as-npcs" set up because of the issue with height (being they are too small, which can create some awkward issues with the camera), however scripted conversations can occur outside of regular Npc-Player convos.

Dagi-Raht
1-2 inches shorter than the Tojay, the Dagi-Raht will be a mesh edit, and a retex of Tojay-Raht/Tojay. Handled in the same way as the Tojay, in that it'll be treated as a creature that won't talk to the player apart from scripted dialogue spoken out of regular Npc-Player convos.


Dagi
1-3 inches shorter than the Dagi-Raht. A slight retex of the Dagi-Raht, and handled in the same way as the Dagi-Raht.


Non-'Standard' Quadropedal Forms: -descriptions to come

Alfiq

Alfiq-Raht

Pahmar

Pahmar-Raht

Senche

Senche-Raht

[Deeza]

This looks like a good start. Sounds like a lot of work though.

[The Old Ye Bard]

Originally posted by Deeza
This looks like a good start. Sounds like a lot of work though.

It will be, but we lack much of a choice, however the upside is that only the 'standard' forms we can make as actual Npcs will be of any importance (in regards to the Main Quest, and important Npcs, like city rulers, etc), the others can be added in later as fillers.

[morcroft]

We have usable models for all the non-human forms, including Dagi & Tojay with beast legs - based on the scamp. Some improved models and more retexing are still required but they're going in-game as a starting point.

I'm making placeholders for the humanoid races as per TOYB's guidelines, with one exception: I disagree that Suthay should have beast-feet. If "man-legs" are a game-mechanic for Suthay-Raht Oblivion default Khajiit, then we should be consistent and use the same feet for Suthay - otherwise the breed charateristic is lost.

Only Cathay variants will use the beast-feet "boots."

[The Old Ye Bard]

Originally posted by morcroft
We have usable models for all the non-human forms, including Dagi & Tojay with beast legs - based on the scamp. Some improved models and more retexing are still required but they're going in-game as a starting point.

I'm making placeholders for the humanoid races as per TOYB's guidelines, with one exception: I disagree that Suthay should have beast-feet. If "man-legs" are a game-mechanic for Suthay-Raht Oblivion default Khajiit, then we should be consistent and use the same feet for Suthay - otherwise the breed charateristic is lost.

Only Cathay variants will use the beast-feet "boots."

Will the idea behind the Suthay's having beast feet was to reconcile the differences between Morrowind Suthay-raht's (which have beast feet) to Oblivion which don't.

[morcroft]

... but then that's trying to retcon the lore rather than accept the "game mechanic" interpretation!

Don't really know, but it just seems that it will be more consistent in-game if the pairs of named forms at least have matching shapes.

[The Old Ye Bard]

Originally posted by morcroft
... but then that's trying to retcon the lore rather than accept the "game mechanic" interpretation!

Don't really know, but it just seems that it will be more consistent in-game if the pairs of named forms at least have matching shapes.

Well it's not a retcon because it's not changing the legs of the Suthay-raht -there's no lore on actually what the legs of the Suthay itself is meant to have, aside from that the 'current' Suthay-Raht having straights legs (which in itself isn't a strong reason to have the Suthay having straight legs aswell).

However, I don't see it as a big issue in itself, so if you feel the Suthay shouldn't have bent legs, then go ahead with including them that way.

[morcroft]

I'm not keen on any Ohmes resources I've found so here's my first cut at an Ohmes-Raht. I think we should keep the face tattoos in simple black, but try and make the shapes interesting.



I used Robert's Imperial human face from his male body replacer mod - he has kindly made it a "use freely" resource. At 512 px it's a decent size to get some detail into the tattoos.

I expect I'll just put the one version into the next release - we'll need more!

[Kyoushu]

I'll try and help out, I'm sketching out a basic Male face which I'll use as a template for adding different tattoos and/or variations. Stupid question I take it the Ohmes/O-Raht have more humanoid noses? Had a crazy idea they were kinda like the Mithra of Final Fantasy... /shrug

[The Old Ye Bard]

Originally posted by Kyoushu
I'll try and help out, I'm sketching out a basic Male face which I'll use as a template for adding different tattoos and/or variations. Stupid question I take it the Ohmes/O-Raht have more humanoid noses? Had a crazy idea they were kinda like the Mithra of Final Fantasy... /shrug

They do kinda like them, just from looking on google images now, though they have Elven ears -basically the only thing that sets them off as Khajiit, is the fact they have tails, presumably a very short coat of skin-coloured-ish fur on their bodies (so the feeling of their 'skin' would be something like felt in texture), and the tatoos -otherwise they look almost identical for Bosmer (in Arena, the variety of playable Khajiit was the Ohmes/Ohmes-Raht).