Has anyone heard about....

[Zarf]

Banning guns isn't an option. Your inability to understand why Americans want guns is simply because you didn't grow up here. It's part of our culture, but the left wants American culture to go away for some reason. The whole reason we exist is because of an over-oppressive government in the UK, and we didn't want the same scenario possible here. The government should fear it's people, and when you nerf the population by taking away their guns, the government has nothing to fear.

Ivory Tower folks can't seem to understand this for some reason. And yet we call them "Intellectuals".

[Mormacil]

I don't even try to attempt to reply to this.

[DarkEclipse]

I think crime is basically impossible to "stop." Sure, you can lower crime rates with certain things, but are you ever really going to stop all murders, attacks, robberies...?

Crime is pretty much a part of a human nature. A particularly ugly part of it, but it's real, and I don't think it can just be surpressed with laws.

A ban on guns definately wouldn't stop murders. Murder can be commited with almost any object. Knives, rocks, tools (crowbars, saws, hammers, axes), just too many things to ban. If we could find a way to get people to cut it out? Being a pacifist, I think that would be pretty rad.

Edit: .... also, yeah. Americans love them guns. It's a thing, y'know.

[Zarf]

I don't even try to attempt to reply to this.

Too late! Run for cover!

[KuKulzA]

no... see... Americans have been armed since the dawn of the colonial existence...

but say look at Chinese... they didn't all own arms... they were often forbbiden... and when you take away the empowerment of a people by screwing up their martial arts, killing the brave and the educated, and brainwashing and using secret police and torture... you take away a people's will to have the RIGHT to be empowered...
why so many nerdy chinese FOBs, all they know is how to get good grades? Cause that's the only empowerment that they had an outlet for. Regurgitate facts that the government wants you to learn and you get somewhere. But be armed with knowledge you aren't programmed to know, armed with weaponry, armed with practical and powerful martial arts, armed with bravery and the expectation of human rights... then the government needs to be for the people... but kill all of that and make the people dumb and scared, then you have little to fear.. the people will eventually come to think a strict, one-sided, government is natural...

just look at the KuoMingTang faction in Taiwan... they didn't even have a debate about who to be th epresidential candidate, they just selected the popular guy... it is so centralized and imperial... they aren't truly democratic and chinese culture has NEVER been democratic...
it's always been having to suck up to your higher-ups to get somewhere and keeping your mouth shut about things that the government don't want you to talk about...


taking guns away from americans would be terrible... as strange as it seems, compared to many other places, USA is a very empowered place... you take their accustomed empowerment away, people will begin to get pissed... and they are used to a government for the people and by the people, not a government where the people have an obligation of loyal and servitutde to, and must serve their country to better their rulers...
USA is very different... personally I am not part of that culture totally... but I am different from many of my contemporaries... son of immigrants I see a lot of asian kids like me have no balls, they just act like getting As is the only thing in life... or money... and they don't stand up for themselves too well.... big white jock kid comes up they shy away, I stand up for myself, don't let people step on me cause that's exactly what the racist minded people want... they want hard-workers who'll work for less and get stepped on, and stay away from whites...
that's how it is, and the chinese mentality, quickly brainwashed, dumb and scared, and only seeking to get by without trouble and fulfill obligations... that'll get us nowhere... we never join army, we never get much into politics, we didn't get into too many baseball or football teams...

if we want to be more socially accepted and have US white folks be cool with us we gotta first examine ourselves, are wewilling to have the balls to stand up for ourselves, not let people say we're nerds, or let them treat our women like their house-keepers or whores...?


everything is interconnected...

that kid may have been a psychopath, but he also comes from a society where opinions and freedom and mental illness are discouraged, hidden, and a shame... yes, things are turning around... but cultures that have been manipulated to be that way for thousands of years will not change in a century... no it'll take a long time before the culture can allow its own people to empower themselves...

for all America's faults, I admire that Americans in general feel they have the right to be empowered... that is ahead of many... many cultures around the world do not feel all have the right to be empowered wtih knowledge, protection, or what have you... it is a very amazing thing... and I am happy i live in the USA

[Seniosh]

Well one problem is that people with mental disorders are so well protected by laws. Do you know how hard it is to throw someone out of college because of a mental defect? Incredibly hard. You first have to get about 3 warrents enabling you to bring the kid in, examine him, run him through tests, search for intent to harm other people. Then you have to go through a crapload of red tape to get him thrown out. Counselling is OPTIONAL.

There's nothing colleges can do! these people apparantly have a "right" to be mentally ill, and unfortunately it ends up harming other people, because action cannot be taken. My Aunt is on the senior board of a college, and the fallout from this has been incredible, and reinforces how dangerous some mentally ill people can be, and how ill-equipped our society is to deal with them.

People KNEW this guy was wacked. He'd been arrested for stalking charges years ago, and was taking medication for whatever mental disorder he had. It was only a matter of time before he snapped, and the problem is where it becomes a matter of rights infringement. Sure not EVERY mental person will go and kill 33 people, but you have to find the ones that will, and then take care of them, which is not being permitted to happen.

Oh yeah, and i'm an american, and i think guns are horrific, and should be restricted heavily. This guy was mentally ill, and he bought his guns legally. That scares me. Not all americans love guns. Plus, the clause in the constitution is talking about colonial militias, which DON'T EXIST, making the whole right to bare arms void. Of course it wouldn't stop people from harming others, but would i rather get assaulted with a shotgun or a crowbar? Kind of an obvious choice. Guns are simply made to kill, and have no place in civilized society. It takes times like this to make us realize exactly what they do, and it's unfortunate that it's likely that nothing will happen.

Unfortunately, for all america's good traits, bad stuff like this happens, because americans just aren't willing to give up one personal freedom for the sake of safety. the NRA has too much money, and the corruption sickens me.

[DarkEclipse]

Originally posted by Seniosh
Well one problem is that people with mental disorders are so well protected by laws.(snip)

I didn't know that... that's seriously wacked. (I don't use that word often.)

(snip) Oh yeah, and i'm an american, and I think guns are horrific, and should be restricted heavily. This guy was mentally ill, and he bought his guns legally. That scares me.

Yeah... that's also messed up. Maybe health records should be included with the background checks it takes to buy guns....

(.... we do have background checks, right?)

(Snip.... jeez that was a long post, K.) for all America's faults, I admire that Americans in general feel they have the right to be empowered... that is ahead of many... many cultures around the world do not feel all have the right to be empowered wtih knowledge, protection, or what have you... it is a very amazing thing... and I am happy I live in the USA

Honestly, yeah, it does beat other countries. I wouldn't say there's less problems than other places have, but there's different ones.

[KuKulzA]

Originally posted by Seniosh
Unfortunately, for all america's good traits, bad stuff like this happens, because americans just aren't willing to give up one personal freedom for the sake of safety. the NRA has too much money, and the corruption sickens me.

I agree, the National Rifle Association is the biggest lobbyist group... dirty SOBs who promote guns and their ownership and bribe/ have cofee with/ go to baseball games with government officials to help persuade them to vote in the NRA's favor... they just use connections and political ties to help keep their rules in law...

and yeah, the reason for well-armed citizenry came at a time when warring when native americans was common, and common fear of oppression by the government was present, and when the military was owned locally in the form of militias... nowadays I don't think guns should be encouraged at all...

[DarkAsmodeous]

The role of government is to divorce the utilization of retalitory force under an objective body. As Ayn Rand phrased it "Do divorce the use of force from whim". The fundamental human right is Liberty, and Liberty is best defined as the widest range of action you can have without infringing upon a similar set of actions of another, or, put more simply, the right to pursue that which interests you without interfereing with another's ability to pursue their own ends. This translates into any action you can concieve without the use of force or fraud. The only situation where the use of force is not only permissable, but also absolutely neccissary, is in the retalitory use of force. However, the very structure which the use of retalitory force is required to protect collapses when it is subject to the whim of those parties effected by the initial, immoral and injust use of force (And also when the government system allows for such whim). The government, in being an objective body, perhaps through a system of procedural justice (for example, juras prudence), seperates the whim from the application. The individual may do anything except what is forbiden, the government may do nothing except what is permited. The real debate here is whether the right to bear arms is an example of individuals taking responsibility for a natural right that has been passed on to the government, and thus should be controled, whether guns represent force inherantly, and thus should be controled, or if guns are outside this role of government and thus should be left to the people to regulate.

[KuKulzA]

well said... :goodjob: