Its debate time!

[Psychotic]

Also, the thing is, the statement "a society exists to benefit humanity as a whole" is empty because there is no single individual that has the knowledge required to create and order that will benefit the individuals, however when individuals pursue their own ends, without violating other's rights and without using force or fraud, then they will in the end benefit society more than any deliberate plan could.

While I did say that society exists to benefit human kind, I never said it was purposefully created with that intention.

The examples you provide psycho violate the rules of the game, meaning, they infringe on rights or use force or fraud, this is specificaly the ONLY time a state may use force and remain legitimate.

True, but my example had nothing to do with the right of the state to use force; it had to do with the ability to avoid the self-destructive elements that originate from going against the properly functional rules of a society.

Even Psychotic's analogy about the fraudulent businessman doesn't strike me as entirely accurate. Sure he can evade taxes, but unless it becomes somekind of high profile case that goes to the supreme court/sets some kind of tax evation precedent, its really just gonna be one stone less in the bucket, I mean, goverments have budgets of Trillions of dollars, one guy not paying isn't going to impact things that much.

It was not the best example (it's a very mild example actually), but just think of any other truly powerful individual and you will realize that the damage they can cause on society without bringing harm to themselves is immense.

While there are many forms of power one of the most important in society is the power of influence. An influential individual = the power of a group of like minded individuals, more influence = bigger group, bigger group = more power. Having influence is like being one person with the combined influence of all the people under your influence... it's like one person being able to vote 10, 100, 10000, 1000000 times in public elections.

[DarkAsmodeous]

And if those individuals wish to follow that individual, it is well within their rights to choose to, it is NOT within our rights to dictate that they cannot.

[Psychotic]

Originally posted by DarkAsmodeous
And if those individuals wish to follow that individual, it is well within their rights to choose to, it is NOT within our rights to dictate that they cannot.

Again I did not say otherwise, I was just pointing something out.

[DarkAsmodeous]

Oh, I had just assumed you meant that information to lead to some conclusion.

[Psychotic]

Originally posted by DarkAsmodeous
Oh, I had just assumed you meant that information to lead to some conclusion.

I don't make conclusions; don't conclude things like that about me.