Kwama Worker

[The Modax Jago]

Originally posted by nick_op
Right, all 20 Kwama Forager animations are complete, 16 of them are working fine in the CS, I'll need to mess around a bit to test the idles.

That leaves havoking the skeleton (again) and figuring out the particle effect. I have a working particle sytem in Max, I just need to determine how to get it exported properly. I think I'm pretty close, it just needs a bit more experimentation. Fear not, for the Forager will soon be spitting poison at you!

With the Forager nearly done I've started looking over the Worker.

@ The Modax Jago

Do you mind if I change some features of the Worker? At the moment it's looking too much like the Warrior (at least, it looks like TES 3's warrior, I've not managed to open the one you uploaded). Namely, I'd like to remove the Foarager head and flip the legs so they're facing backwards. I might also want to change the design of the legs slightly to make them more animation friendly (to me).

@ SACarrow

If you have the time, could you work your magic to get the UV map and textures into a consistant format like you did with the Forager, please? Also, if you could convert the model to .nif format that'd be fantastic.

Cheers,

Nick

Good luck on the forager, I cant wait to see it in game.

As per the worker, I dont think your proposal would be a good idea.

1. I wanted the worker and warriror to look, logically, like they are from the same genetic pool, if not to almost appear like differnt metamorphical stages of the same species. Take for refreance ants, or even better, Xenomorphs (THE Alien,... from the moive). For instance compare the standerd "drone" alien with the "queen gaurdian" alien, and then the queen itself. Its important to keep a rational logical consistency with the design.

2. There are differnces, namely a) the worker is far smaller, b) does not have sharp "horns" like the warriror c) the head carapeace is very much duller and smaller d) it's profile and walk is "lower" then the warrior e) it is far, far duller in color and texture then the warriror f) overall it has a squawt feel to it that should distinguish it from the very much larger, bulker, and brighter worrior.

3. If you want to reverse legs of the worker, then ALL the legs should be reversed, it makes no sense that from one morph to another suddenly the gene's will instruct the creature to reorder entire leg structures, especially so late in it's development. The original Kwamas had this VERY cheesy design theme where they would just flip and reverse the body, remove the head in one, and place it in another. Just really cheesy design, you could so tell it was all reusing the same models, that I guess could be justified by limited resources. I want to avoid all this "flipping around, reverseing here, adding body parts here and there" design policy.

4. I am sure that once the model is in game, and in its enviroment, it will be easy to tell all the kwama's apart. When you have 3-4 workers grouped together and 1-2 warriors looming over the petit dimunitive workers it should be very clear which is which.

5. One additionally differnce in animation as well is that the warrior is designed to be able to rear up on its massive hind legs, where the worker is not.

6.Also I have plans to build yet one more new type, the "Kwama Guardian" which would be an even bigger, ultra-Kwama with huge tusks, similiar to say an Ultralisk from starcraft.

7. The forgarer "head" that adult kwamas have should be a consitent design element, either they all have it, or none. It just is not logical in a biological sense that these larva head would suddenly disapper and reapper in differnt morphs. Again, there should be a certain logic to the evolution here. This is what my idea is.

Kwama egg - Forager - Kwama woker - Kwama warrior - "Kwama Gaurdian" - Kwama Queen

8. As for altering the leg geometry, sure go for it, if it makes your animation eaiser to do.

9. Maybe as a suggestion, maybe a more distinct texture for each creature would be better then chaning around the parts.

Hope I've been helpfull.

Again you will need 3DS MAX 9 to open the files I uploaded

Any further request let me know.

Note From Steve: I sliced this post from the Kwama Forager thread 'cause it seemed like a natural starting point for a worker thread.

[SACarrow]

Just like the warrior: static and without collision. Many of the same attachments as in my very recent warrior post. The ESP is independent of the one in that post, but you'll need the meshes and texes from that one.

After looking at these shots, I'm inclined to agree with TMJ: both warrior and worker need to be a little bigger. I'm thinking +50% for the worker and +25% for the warrior because I think they should be closer in size but with the warrior still bigger. Any thoughts?

Again, I hope the 3DS works for you Nick.

The pix follow,
Steve

[Ibsen's Ghost]

I think I prefer this little guy most of all! He looks the most insectoid of the lot of them with him being situated so close to the ground :goodjob:

[nick_op]

@The Modax Jago

Now that I've seen the warrior and worker together I agree with all your points. It definitely makes sense to keep them consitant.

@ Steve

Thanks for the files, I'll deal with any flipped normals etc.

Regarding size - we need to be careful that we don't make them too big, as the caves that they fit in can be fairly cramped at times. After all, how intimidating is a kwama warrior that can't reach you because it's stuck on a support beam? I guess if it's no taller than an altmer then it should be alright.

Cheers again,

Nick

[The Modax Jago]

Very true I think as high as an Altmer is prefect.


I dont know if its to much to ask Sarrow, but could you make a OB scene with more "in context" lighting. For example put these guys in a cave with light coming from torches and camp fires. And put a wolf or bear to have as a size reference.

The Ultra Kwama should be so big it would not be able to leave the cave opening.

These will look so f'ing awesome when they are animated! I cannot wait!

[Gez]

Ah, the Kwama Warrior... One of the coolest and oddest creatures. Did you know it's really an overgrown Forager using the exoskeleton of a dead worker? Yeah, it's a bit like Earthworm Jim, going in the armor lets it use the arms and legs or the armor...

See this. What's even more fun is that the forager jumps in the dead kwama's mouth, so it walks on what was the worker's hands, and its head protrudes from what was the worker's arse.

So this is not "cheesy design", it is delightful weirdness.

[nick_op]

Gez,

Now that you've pointed that out, I've noticed that on the ES3 warrior model, the legs are backwards (as they should be). I'm certainly up for retaining the weirdness, we'll have to see what Modax says.

[LPS_]

Originally posted by The Modax Jago
Kwama egg - Forager - Kwama woker - Kwama warrior - "Kwama Gaurdian" - Kwama Queen

Sorry for not introducing myself anywhere, everything I know about modding is placing things in CS, I have no intentions to join as a modder, but I can join dicussions I hope
After what I understood reading the UESP kwama page(and seeing a concept picture) the forager is NOT the larva, the larva of kwama is the skrib, what is realistic is, later skribs loose legs and head become foragers, and some grow further and become workers.
So:
Skrib - Forager(Mostly)/Worker('Little less)/Queen(Very rare)

An image posted here somewhere says there is not specific "warrior kwama" but a warrior is a dead worker exoskeleton being lived in by a forager.
Dead Worker+Living Forager=Kwama Warrior.
This means that the warrior should nit be a bigger worker, but a worker with a forager sticing out its back walking backwards being bale to stand on 2 legs.
So workers should not have a "worm"
The difference should be that it has a "worm" has reverted movement, can stand on 2 legs, spit poison, and is a little stronger, not the size.
(according to th picture)

[nick_op]

Yes, the scrib has been left out of the loop so far. I was actually planning on modelling it myself at some point as it'll probably fairly easy, but I don't mind if Modax or someone else wants to do it as I've got my hands full at the moment.

Sorry for not introducing myself anywhere, everything I know about modding is placing things in CS, I have no intentions to join as a modder, but I can join dicussions I hope

The more input we get the better, I say.

Edit: From a purely technical point of view, getting rid of the forager head on the worker would bring the polycount down to my target of 10k.

[The Modax Jago]

Well... good work you dedicated lore masters! It not only makes for a good story, but a terrifcally good excuse to not have to build more models then you need to! Talk about a clever solution.

ES lore is full of loopy little things like this. Kindof like the thing with the way moons were graphically represented in earlier games being explained with no small amount of creativity as some trait of the very reality of the ES universe. Hah! Bethesda has a taste for this, and one of the reasons its lore stands out.

Back on topic.

Hmmmmmm... it seems I have been trumped. The idea I see is not to bad, although I still feel the implementation is a little of.

I totally am for remaining as loyal as possible to the original spirit of ES.

In fact, I feel that we should implement it totally 100% as in its original draft as presented in the paper.

Possible solutions;


1) Remove the head from the Kwama Worker.

2) Remove the "tail" from the kwama Warrior

3) Reverse the back?/front? legs of all the Kwama models so far.

4) "New" Kwama Warrior will be Kwama worker shell reversed, with the forgarer sticking out it's arse.

5) Current Warriror, with a few modifications, will be THE Guardian Kwama ( a new type I've been wanting to make ). Consider it like a powered up "armor suit", +10

6) Skrimmer and Queen will be whats left to work on.

I think that about sums it up. Let me know guys.

Thanks for the lore ref. some of it is kindof esoteric and hard to know.

As always we want to keep original to the ES spirit.