Left or right? Liberal or socialistic?

[TheImperialDragon]

Okay, I'm interested in hearing DA tell us what happened in Russia. How about China? Explain how things are in China.

[Cogidubnus]

From what I'm hearing from Psychotic, Communism sounds like yet another crackpot attempt at Utopia. Good in theory, never, EVER, works in practice.

Ever. It would fall faster than a spongecake in an opera house.

[Psychotic]

What happened in Russia is really simple, you can't turn an agricultural economy into a communist economy, you can't skip all the steps that are in between. Communism requires a highly developed economy on a global scale and enough material resources so that they can be divided equally (or as equally as realistically possible) while keeping everyone happy by providing them with enough resources for leading a comfortable life.
The big problem occurs when some decide that they can get away with not working for their part of the pie (this is not an actual pie I'm taking about ) because they think that there are enough other people to work in their stead.

The system might not collapse if 10, 100 or even 1000 people stop pulling their own weight in society, but behavior like this spreads quickly and that is why communism requires responsibility.

What happened in Russia is really simple, you can't turn an agricultural economy into a communist economy, you can't skip all the steps that are in between. Communism requires a highly developed economy on a global scale and enough material resources so that they can be divided equally (or as equally as realistically possible) while keeping everyone happy by providing them with enough resources for leading a comfortable life.
The big problem occurs when some decide that they can get away with not working for their part of the pie (this is not an actual pie I'm taking about ) because they think that there are enough other people to work in their stead.

The system might not collapse if 10, 100 or even 1000 people stop pulling their own weight in society, but behavior like this spreads quickly and that is why communism requires responsibility.

Edit: Cogidubnus, my explanation of communism was overly simplified because I'm lazy. If you would like to understand the principles of communism I recommend reading "Das Kapital" ("The Capital") by Carl Marx.

[Cogidubnus]

Of course, if history is any indicator, man is always responsible and hardworking, right? Oh, wait...

Like I said, in theory. I would place money that such a system would collapse after at least 10 years. It might limp on longer. Simply, for the fact that, people will always mess it up. Always. People are not responsible, and people deviate simply for the sake of deviation. People like to screw with the system, and stick it to the man. Heck, I love to stick it to the man. And, these deviants would be looked down upon by the majority...you can see where this is going.

The answer lies not in community alone nor individuality alone. But, that is another topic altogether.

[Psychotic]

See my edit:

Originally posted by Psychotic
Edit: Cogidubnus, my explanation of communism was overly simplified because I'm lazy. If you would like to understand the principles of communism I recommend reading "Das Kapital" ("The Capital") by Carl Marx.

Communisms is connected with the evolution of human society, but also the human mind. The truth is that many core human notions and values need to be changed in order for communism to function. The idea of communism is waiting for the human mind to catch up and evolve. The mind evolves very slowly, but it evolves none the less... this is why I can't accept that any idea is "too perfect to strive for".

[Cogidubnus]

If people were perfect, than such a system might work. Until they are, I shall continue to say that it will not work, and will end in violence.

Be encouraged!

[Psychotic]

Originally posted by Cogidubnus
If people were perfect, than such a system might work. Until they are, I shall continue to say that it will not work, and will end in violence.

Be encouraged!

People will never be perfect in my eyes as I don't believe that there is such a thing as perfection... perfection is a never-ending ladder. Communism does not require perfection, but it does require many things that we humans as a race do not posses at this point in our evolution.

[TheImperialDragon]

My opinion is that Communism is against human nature/instincts, those who have power gain more power from the people who have very little left... All this equality, how everyone is treated equally... Unfortunately, a lot of people don't think like that, and would (and have taken) take advantage of such a system. I could reference a lot of religious texts that have similar ideals about everyone being equal, but the fact is that a lot of people think they are superior to everyone else, or to a group of people, an ethnic race, or a religion, etc... In most part due to arrogance and ignorance of the world around them. But I'm probably going farther than I should have.

Maybe in another few hundred years, things might be different, the key word is "gradual". The way the world is will not change over night.

[Mormacil]

Psychotic I think you're right, but I also think that we're drifting away more and more from a possible communist state. As far as for evolution of the mind we're becomming more and more distached from our fellow men. We're becomming more individuals. In the dawn of men we had to life in a herd to survive, now we don't have to. I think we care less nowdays.

[Psychotic]

Originally posted by TheImperialDragon
Maybe in another few hundred years, things might be different, the key word is "gradual". The way the world is will not change over night.

I agree with that. That is why I said that the mind is the part lagging farthest behind. As I said, we need to evolve beyond notions such as the thirst for personal power, domination and all other egoistical notions that can be related to the topic.

Edit: Mormacil, it depends on how you look at it. For people to be able to enjoy individual freedoms they need to have less survival-connected worries. For people to have less survival-connected worries they either need to work together or make others work for them. My point is that the people in power don't have any power without the people they rule over. The ones in power rely on the masses as a way to create individual freedoms for themselves, and this will continue to be so until we create truly intelligent machines... and we all know what happened in "The Matrix".