Legio Argonis plans

[Axen]

I think Axen referred to The Ancient Gate, as that's the only defense against Nords in the TES3 mod I know of. It doesn't have anything to do with Legio Argonis, which I believe will be built in Imperial style - since KuKulzA said that in the initial post and I haven't read anything to the contrary from him.

I was talking about the tower of Silgrad itself (KuKulzA kind of brought it up)... but I guess I didn't make it clear enough I was talking about that. >_< (Yeah, things DO tend to get wildly off topic on these forums...)

[KuKulzA]

blame the off-topic-ness on people. not the forum...

and thank you Razorwing for clearing things up, though I thought it would not be necessary nor warrented... hrug:

[raggidman]

Razorwing: I trust you didn't miss the months of development that have been plowed down by Caligula Superfly and Zarf into recreating Redoran buildings true to the original designs? In light of that I find your quoted comment above a bit condescending.

Funny thing that, with the comments that I have made in the Redoran thread, guess I might as well not have bothered. And I have not seen everything in the thread, I just go forward in good faith.

Razorwing: Naturally they won't look the same. For example, there isn't any building models in Oblivion that look very close to the ones used in the TES3 mod,

So therefore you took the courageous decision to use the nodels there rather than delay the whole project months in order to create an Imperial tileset that was closer to the previous TES3 one? Wasn't that what I said? As in sometimes you have to make tough decisions? i.e. sacrifice one thing to gain something else? Is that wrong?

Walls work differently this time, keeping the player inside the worldspace, so it wouldn't be practical to add steps for him to walk up on the walls like in the old keeps.

As my currently available resources keep me from doing Ob moddeling, and nor had I read a post that mentions the lack of exterior movement options, I had no idea that was the case. One may wonder if that is 360isation creeping in, but this mod is for the PC only, so would it be impossible to create exterior options? Well, at the least it would take extra time - as stated = priorities. Would I expect you or anyone to go back at this stage to rework what they had spent months in good faith creating? qua feci, feci...what I have done I have done... the pragmatic decision made was to gain the time, so ...

But with regard to the 'frontier/Morrowind' style Forts, if it is possible for someone to create a tileset with exterior movement then all praise to them, as my feeling is that would be a better solution, and give the best of both worlds = solid progress with RPK and Blacklight afforded by the Ob tileset as well as showing Bethsoft and the modding community just how good the ST modders really are (once again )

Razorwing: If I remember correctly there wasn't a viable exporter back when I started, so it wouldn't have been possible to recreate the old Imperial building designs from The Elder Scrolls III.

There was no exporter then so you went ahead on that basis. No arguments there.

NOW wonders have been done and the most excellent ST Nif exporter exists, things that could only have been speculated about are now possible, there are now options that were previously unavailable...

If KKA goes ahead and does an entirely new style of Argonian Imperial Fort the new question is how is that technically more difficult than creating something close to the original Argonian Legion Fort, right?

Because the Nif exporter now exists the basis for current decisions has to change to allow for it. So it becomes possible to get closer to old designs as well as to add new designs, so the new question is whether it is correct to continue to work on the basis implemented in pre-Nif days?

The view I place here for your consideration is that you can get closer to an ideal that includes the best of both worlds.

My suggestion is that for maximum impact the place for totally new innovation is in totally new locations, and that old locations can be most effectively represented by keeping to the same overall exterior proportions - if you can not model exteriors that can be walked on then that is not your fault, but rather a serious fault in the Bethsoft developement program, but that is not a good reason to change the look of the exteriors.

But although I am suggesting the overall proportions remain the same so as to keep the layout and nature of th elocations recognisable, I am also advocating increased detail = if a wall could only accomodate one window previously, there might be 2 windows now. That is a big step based on a recognition that previous memory, processing and rendering limitations no longer apply and detail that could not have been effectively included is now possible.

We all know that for certain technological and social developements to take place and be viable there has to be a far more complicated resource base and bigger population base than can be realistically modelled in the current format we are using, so everything is based on compromise. Therefore there can be no argument with using new capability to add in delicious detail and people, industries, buildings, etc.

My hope is that this will be accomplished by keeping to the original look where possible...

It may be that you and KKA were thinking the same thing, but you did not seem to be saying it, so I have argued my position (in the sure and certain knowledge that if you do not agree you will not take a blind bit of notice hrug: ).

And if KK thought that I was annoyed by Axen's comments, then he is correct. The infamous (his self description) Axen has a way of stating things straight out that often make no sense me, and when others show a different way of looking at the questions, rather than adressing the new ideas, Axen just repeats his original statement. Now THAT is condescending.

If this were a purely fan forum, then things would be different, but we are all Developers here in our own terms. If we do not look at ideas again and again from the new perspectives that the new technologies that we create (ah, well I suggest the occasional idea that others might develope into new technology at least ) offer then we do ourselves a disservice.

Razorwing, I had no intention of being condescending to you, but rather critical of what I thought Axen was saying, and supportive of what you had already accomplished with RPK because I felt that the two situations pre Nif and now are different, or is that nifferent? 'course, if you really want me to be condescending I will try to fit that into my busy schedule...somewhere...

So disagree with me hrug: at least you have argued your case - hope you enjoyed arguing your position as much as I have mine.

It is obvious to me that as our techies come up with new solutions that get around previous limitations we will be able to achieve new things and have to factor those into our planning. Hey, if someone comes up with a way to add in exterior movement on buildings without drawbacks are you just going to ignore it?

[KuKulzA]

no if there is a Morrowind Imperial fort architecture model pack, I'd use it... but there isn't...
WITH a Morrowind Imperial Fort architecure pack, things would be different... no doubt


I think this topic has brought up some glaring issues, those issues and their degree of impact on this team are for you guys to decide, but I think that it should be decided whether we need a Morrowind-Imperial-Fort model selection or not.... afterall it would be nice to be able to make an improved version of the old architecture we got so familiar with...

however I see two explanations... the resources put into making the forts was drawn from Morrowind itself, and all under the supervision of one architectural master. Therefore, these frontier forts of the Imperials all came out with the same general look and the same rock, probably all mined from one large quarry. OR, the forts are simply an earlier rendition of Imperial architecture in an earlier game and it should be "updated" with true Imperial style...

both of these choices are good in their own way - the old-style Morrowind fort is like a nostalgia factor, the usage of Cyrodiil architecture is easy, but definitely not lazy - I don't think 3d modeling is easy, for me :lol:

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[/hr]
raggidman and Axen, it is obvoius you guys piss each other off with or without the intention of doing so. I would suggest if you guys can't reconcile, at least bear with each other, be mature and dignified
I would also suggest that in an arguement, once your point is stated, go with it, but not with restatements, or if you've changed your mind, say so, or people won't know and will be pursuing their arguement
also going on and on, eventually your point gets a bit off-track or lost from my experience, so try to sum it up the first time around (not saying you guys didn't or anything, just that it is a good idea to)

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[/hr]

and finally I want to apologize for not easing this issue early on so that a big arguement over, what it comes down to, a simple decision could ensue. I think I could be responsible for this and thanks Razorwing for clearing it all up... also thank you raggidman for presenting before us your own personal view, while admitting your errors in the face of new information (new to you). I appreciate your maturity in apology and holding true to what you believed in, very good... good to see people like that.

[raggidman]

Well I see this as a crucial and potentially exciting decision not only for you KKA (as you have to factor in all the Vvardenfell Forts to your equation) but also for all the project leaders as they also will have to decide whether there is an Associated Groups-wide Imperial norm for building such frontier structures.

quote KuKulzA: however I see two explanations... the resources put into making the forts was drawn from Morrowind itself, and all under the supervision of one architectural master. Therefore, these frontier forts of the Imperials all came out with the same general look and the same rock, probably all mined from one large quarry. OR, the forts are simply an earlier rendition of Imperial architecture in an earlier game and it should be "updated" with true Imperial style...

Is the Morrowind TES3 Border Fort style not only due as you say to 1 Master Architect, and/or one stone quarry? But also is the style connected to one time period?

So are there to be Imperial variations all over the continent? A major Fort like RPK might have a unique style - it is certainly very different from Ebonheart (also unique) - though I am not sure which was built first. However if you establish a date for Tel Vos as a comparatively new structure (by Telvanni standards ) that might help.

An Imperial Fort set might be very useful to the other projects KKA, and could be a powerful expression of the time and resource savings enabled by standardisation that made the Roman Empire so powerful for example.

The question might be: do the TES3 forts adequately represent a cheap time and budget conscious design that would remain equally useful over a period of several hundred or thousands of years?

The Daggerfall Forts were different - but that was a totally different society although the landscape was Northern Temperate.

Morrowind - as seen.

Elsweyr - the Border Fort Style would certainly look cool in the Desert and the 'Specials' could be very Arabian Nights there.

Black Marshes - if the Legio Argonis remains in the previous style (an Imperial expression) then would it be likely that any BM forts given the similar (swamp but hotter) conditions would mirror it? Maybe up to a point, that being where the true swamps begin, then any heavy construction like that would probably sink into the mire (with the exception of buildings based on rocky outcrops) and I cannot imagine yet what 'Specials' would be like in BM...

Valenwood - a difficult one as the most monumental city has to be the Tree-capital, and there is no talk of Forts per se in Dance in the Fire, which suggests that conditions there make a fort system not so useful because the jungle would be so inaccessible to Imperial transportation techniques. The whole thing of: even if you can win the war, the success of an occupation rather depends on the suitability of your resources and skills. That being the case I would expect Elseweyr Imperial Forts to be at the edges of the land, and in the more open areas of that Province.

Skyrim - Look at Solstheim - Forth Frostmoth there is the same as Fort Buckmoth, Moonmoth etc... So can we consider that the colonisation of Solstheim is a recent development? If it is, does the Fort there suit the climate etc... Once you decide that, then you have a basis for consideration of Skyrim. Add in the Ice Fort of Castle Carstaag, and maybe there is someting coming through...

Would you like to consult with your fellow Project Leaders guys? seems it is worth doing in work terms - along with considering Imperial architectural styles generally. I am sur ethat there will be great and wonderful local variations too, but ...

[KuKulzA]

it was always assumed in my team that we were gonna just use the cloesest fort architecture from Cyrodiil...
but who knows, lore-wise, I am sure it is pretty easy to explain.... Imperial built their fortresses and style as necessary....
in Valenwood and Eslweyr they served more as local garrisons and border forts here and there in the normally nonvolatile regions
in HighRock they were established in several places but were influenced by the Bretons and sort of prevented wars from escalating and involving more than the beginning parties
in Argonia, the forts (or fort/cities) basically watched over the trade-cities of the region or those of strategic importance to Imperials, the rest is left for Argonians
and in Morrowind, because of the extremely volatile situations, the Imperials scattered large numbers of forts, especially in Redoran, Hlaalu, and on Vvardenfell, with strategic points in Indoril, Dres, and Telvanni lands.

sort of like a presidio system of the Spanish, systematically placing forts and monasteries throught their New World territory at set intervals to have a strong hold over the native populations

[raggidman]

Further Historical Comparisons:
The Presidio system sounds much like the way the Normans fortified Wales in what I would suppose were the 12th to 14th centuries where powerful forts were built at strategic points within the Kingdon as well as lining the border with England, and brings to mind the way the Roman Legions operated.

As I understand it, the Roman Legions would build a fortified encampment at the end of each day's march in hostile territiory. A fort complete with a ditch, palisade and 15ft high gates! They carried the lumber and other necessary prefabricated materials with them on their march - presumably in baggage wagons.

The Lore you have mentioned here as to the strategic purposes of the forts in different areas should be very valuable to the teams working on the associated projects.

quote KuKulzA: but I think that it should be decided whether we need a Morrowind-Imperial-Fort model selection or not.... after all it would be nice to be able to make an improved version of the old architecture we got so familiar with

Given that the Ob tileset suits a highly advanced/sophisticated/developed environment it would look very out of place on a 'wild' frontier such as the edge of Black Marshes... What Razorwing has done with Reich Parkeep is build a major cultural and political center designed to emphasise the grandeur of the empire and its dignitaries, not a Border Fort created purely to militarily pacify or protect a newly acquired territory.

So I want to emphasise that an Imperial Fort selection could be Empire-wide if you consult all the project leaders and work together to make it so. It would help them to bring their projects forward as well as your own and attract more skilled people to consider what they would like to do with the 'native' architecture by contrast! The difference between a couple of forts appearing in one province, and loads of forts alll over with our own unique tileset appearing all at once!

As a group of associated projects our greatest strength will come from the areas where we link our work together and innovate while respecting the work of our predecessors.

In-game feel:
One powerful tool in the artist's box is the careful use of contrast. The TES3 frontier Forts are somewhat grim by nature, and so by retaining that style you emphasise the fact that they are imposed on the native peoples by a conquering nation, and allow the 'Special' native structures to shine by comparison.

Thinking of which Caligula Superfly's white marble Redoran stone would look absolutely fabulous in a Khajiiti Palace in the deserts of Elseweyr!

[Siegfried]

MW Imperial Forts FTW :bananarock: :banana: :bananarock: Seriously though, if there is an Imperial Fort Tileset I would most definitely use it in Skyrim :goodjob:

[KuKulzA]

yes, I think I have another agreer in that respect

[raggidman]

There is one aspect that I have not considered yet. What if the Modelling is standard, but there are different textures in different areas to represent the nature of local stone?

ps - not sure if you were thinking of doing the Imperial Fort tileset yourself, or giving the opportunity to an eager specialist KKA?

'course, I believe that there is nothing that the famous Professor KuKulzA cannot achieve if he sets his mind to it, but it might be nice to offer such a major opportunity around...