New Dwemer ornamentation

[Ibsen's Ghost]

That sounds about right, Coinneach. Are you feeling a piece of writing coming on...? =)

[Coinneach]

I am *collective forum groan*

but don't press that little red x just yet, I still need to think of the format these books could take - the mystery of the Dwemer, and their inherently alien culture is such that it might be a bit strange to write 'primary sources' so to speak.

What is the protocol for Dumac literature?

[Ayreus]

Originally posted by nick_op
I'd recommend trying your normal maps at 1 quarter the size of the diffuse (e.g. if diffuse is 512x512, normal will be 256x256) and using the 8.8.8.8 ARGB .dds format. Doing so will keep the file size the same, but often increases the quality of the normal map, thus being a win-win situation.

The suggestion is much appreciated, thanks! I'd completely forgotten you could do that. I've had this idea for awhile that Oblivion would go *blech* if the diffuse and normal image sizes weren't the same. After seeing what DDS compression does to the fine-grained detail, I'd have to agree about actually getting higher image quality for the normal map doing as you suggested. Same goes for the spec map. Again, thanks!

Originally posted by Coinneach
perhaps these more artistic designs could be the hallmark of dwemer understanding of themselves in the world, and a kind of 'literal metaphor' of the dwemer being one more cog in the world. Building up their mechanical mythology so to speak - they were obviously industrious and enterprising, so would have asked themselves why they were there as well as how to make steam engines

Hey, if it works for you . Seriously though, that's an excellent idea, and it opens up a lot of room for the kind of expansion that Seniosh mentioned, more than I've dabbled with here imo. I think I'll expand on the idea by introducing the notion that the Dwemer were more 3-dimensionally, rather than 2-dimensionally (i.e., sculptures, abstract/iconic 3D art rather than murals, frescoes, all that) inclined in the sort of artwork they preferred. If that wasn't where he was going, then it nicely extrapolates on the latest point bob196045 made. And, since engineering runs in the family, I can definitely tell you that it takes someone who is extremely comfortable thinking in at least 3 dimensions to be an engineer. So wouldn't the Dwemer have tended to think about art in the same way? I imagine that they probably would have found strictly 2D art to be a little boring. And what about 4-dimensional art? Artwork that spins, whirls, oscillates (e.g., like a pendulum), or whatever kinds of motion the Dwemer would have been fascinated with...Lots of possibilities with that.

I've started working on another texture that I think will be a little closer to the mark. Will hopefully have it done by tomorrow evening, but things are a little busy around here at the moment with a house to sell and all the fun things that that entails.

EDIT: @nick_op: I'm tempted to go with the 8.8.8.8 ARGB format for the diffuse map as well...the reason being that DDS compression does unspeakable things to parallax alphas. I'm not sure if the performance/level of detail tradeoff there is really worth it though, since using the uncompressed format with Oblivion's clunky parallax mapper is a bit of a double-whammy.

[Seniosh]

Ahh, now 4D art - that would fit the dwemer quite nicely. They're the only guys with steam engines, so they could easily power a few odd, mechanical, but surprisingly artistic and nice-looking... things

I'd definitely agree that the dwemer weren't painters, nor could i see them making too many things that are based in real life (sculptures of people, etc). They thought on a more abstract plane. lines, curves, some amount of symmetry, and interesting geometric designs. I'd be willing to bet that you could do a really nice dwemer fractal as a floor design especially.

Also, i like Coinneach's ideas - this is how they express themselves, and they probably find themselves to be very very cultured and artistic. Just not in the primitive way that all the other people are doing.

[bob196045]

Originally posted by Coinneach
I am *collective forum groan*

but don't press that little red x just yet, I still need to think of the format these books could take - the mystery of the Dwemer, and their inherently alien culture is such that it might be a bit strange to write 'primary sources' so to speak.

What is the protocol for Dumac literature?

No objection to new books

However if we are to keep within the (loose) boundries of the L word, it has to be somewhat justifiable. As spoken previously, it could be
a new dwemer machine
a new dwemer way of thinking (compared to what we know)
a cultural fad
a rebel wanting to bring the dwemer back to the old ways


Enjoy
Bob

[nick_op]

Originally posted by Ayreus
EDIT: @nick_op: I'm tempted to go with the 8.8.8.8 ARGB format for the diffuse map as well...the reason being that DDS compression does unspeakable things to parallax alphas. I'm not sure if the performance/level of detail tradeoff there is really worth it though, since using the uncompressed format with Oblivion's clunky parallax mapper is a bit of a double-whammy.

8.8.8.8 ARGB at 1/4 the size (as suggested with the normal maps)? Or at the original size you were intending to do them. 8.8.8.8 ARGB blows up the file size pretty big, which is why I suggested going for the 1/4 (which, with normal maps manages to retain a higher quality). Not sure how well it would work with the diffuse though. I've never messed with parallax, so you'll have to make the choice.

[Ayreus]

I have to admit, I'm rather intrigued by the challenge of coming up with some 4D art. And, everything considered, the Dwemer probably would have discovered fractals and other advanced mathematics. They would likely have gotten as far as calculus, or some analogy to what we know as calculus--the earlier (modern) forms of which predate the Industrial Revolution by something like 200 years in real-world history, so yes it's extremely plausible--so it would be interesting to try to incorporate that into some sort of artwork as well. Anyway, the 4D art stuff will probably have to wait until after I've gotten a lot more work done on the meshes for the Forsaken Isles... But that's a good thing actually, since it'll give the ideas a chance to simmer for awhile.

Well, I finished the texture I mentioned I'd started working on a couple of days ago. Yesterday was a bust with having to get ready to show the house today, but I was able to finish it up, and it turned out nicely:

http://i38.tinypic.com/29xiruh.jpg
http://i38.tinypic.com/2po8tow.jpg

This is in a somewhat different vein from what I've done so far, but I think it adds to the Dwemer art vocabulary rather nicely; it's a nice fusion of flowing curves and geometrically-derived, overlapping bodies on a high-frequency background that contrasts well with the smooth contours. And since this is supposed to be the texture for a decorative metal band the Dwemer would have used to bolt together segments of their machinery, those silver-ish round "orbs" are actually rivet heads. I guess they really don't look quite banged-up enough for that, but that's a quick fix.

Anyway, let me know how well/where you think this would fit in with our evolving ideas of Dwemer aesthetics. I personally think it fits in well with the kinds of ornamentation they would have put on prominent machinery, but as Coinneach has proven there's quite a lot of potential symbolism that I'm probably overlooking, and I'm sure there are plenty of other ways this could fit into the overall scheme.

[Ibsen's Ghost]

Fits with the style you're developing very nicely IMO. =)

[Ayreus]

Originally posted by Ibsen's Ghost
Fits with the style you're developing very nicely IMO.

Thanks, hope that means I'm on the right track . I decided to throw the new textures onto a few in-game test objects I have set up to test out new textures, so I thought everyone might like to see how they'll actually look to the player.

http://i37.tinypic.com/2mwi8vm.jpg

http://i37.tinypic.com/adjl0k.jpg

http://i35.tinypic.com/2n7qvbt.jpg

The shots also feature a texture I haven't mentioned here that I specially made for one of the pieces of machinery I'm working on for the Forsaken Isles. I think I'll probably use this one for the machinery in general and let the other (the texture in the last screenshot) be for purely decorative purposes. As always, let me know if you think this is going in the right direction, or if there are some stylistic issues that still need to be addressed.

[InsanitySorrow]

WOW, thats some nice work :goodjob: