Tsaesci

[sphr]

lol.. nice research

my personal view is that there's nothing wrong with name clashes... it actually makes things more interesting as it presents a realistic view of how terms can be warpped, adapted and spread through language (e.g. say a term used to mean something but over time its meaning also evolved).

In much the same way, I purposely use the term "dragon" to mean quite a few different things : The serpentine form of the gods and a status of divinity and the 9 "mortal" dragon types (which includes Naga). Its a little confusing at first, but isn't that what separates lore-masters from the common farmer?

Just some more background, the use of "Naga" in the context of my lore is actually proper. Naga is a sanskrit term which literally means "dragon". In buddhist script, Naga, along with 7 other races (Yaksa, Ghandarva, Diva, Mahoraga, ... recognized them?? They are the base models I'm using for the other "demi-immortals" LOL) are the guardians. So if there is to be a name conflict, I think our Akavir version has the superior claim. Tell Bethesda to change theirs... lol....

More seriously, I think there is nothing wrong. when we think about "Naga", we shouldn't think about one uniform race with same features and colour (just like when you talk about asians or caucasians, you don't expect all within the same group to look that similar, though a member from one group may probably find it hard to tell members of the other group apart, just like a tamriel human will find it hard to tell that two Naga are from different tribes, though to the Nagas, it is as plain as black and white). We COULD potentially work out something with the argonians being related to the Naga. In the current lore I am working on, the Tsaesci killed/conquered/enslaved the Naga over 5000 years ago. It is highly probable that some Naga escaped. And 5000 years is enough for a culture to be reshaped almost totally, especially when the Naga faced such extreme circumstances.

(btw, I'm grouping the Chinese Dragon Kings as a clan of royalty among th Naga. wikipedia will have more info)

of cos, it's just my opinion

[DarkAsmodeous]

Argonians (including the hist trees) are the oldest form of life on mundas.

Name clashes within the same cltur makes sense, on different continets with different languages, the chances of the dexcribing similar things is slim.

Just because it means dragon in our world does not make it proper in nirn.

[Kodama]

Hey SPHR!!! :banana:
Where have you been? ?(
Nice to see you again, and i hope to see you more often...at least once a week

Hey DA, i found this lore in the Argonian compendium:


From the Imperial Library's Tamrielic History section:

Early Merethic Era--
Aboriginal beastpeoples (ancestors of the Khajiit, Argonian, Orcish, and other beastfolk) live in preliterate communities throughout Tamriel.

Z'en, a Bosmeri god often confused with Zenithar, may have originally been part of the pantheon of the silver-skinned human tribe of Black Marsh, the Kothringi. It can only be speculated whether they got Z'en from the Argonians (lizard men) or not. Of most interest is the connection made with Akavir.

From the Imperial Library's "Tamriel Gods" section, Bosmer/Wood Elf listing:

Z'en, god of Toil
Bosmeri god of payment in kind. Studies indicate origins in both Argonian (!) and Akaviri mythologies, perhaps introduced into Valenwood by Kothringi sailors. Ostensibly an agriculture deity, Z'en sometimes proves to be an entity of a much higher cosmic order. His worship died out shortly after the Knahaten Flu.


What do you think about that? We could use it to make a connection between Argonia and Akavir, could this be used as an excuse to use Naga's in Akavir after all?
They might have migrated somehow ?(

[DarkAsmodeous]

Hist trees are only able to survive in tamriel.

In lore, tamriel is special, it is the heart of the world and sole home of the beastmen (khajiit and argonians) Khajiit in mythology split from the bosmer, in history, they are sighted before the bosmer develope.

Mythology can spread, not so much the argonians, especialy considering that the argonian mythology was influenced a bit by the bosmer, so their akivari contact is second hand.

[Kodama]

Well, what if it's a split off, they could have developed in such a way that they don't need hist trees.
Assuming that argonians really need those and that it's not just some freaky tradtion of tree licking or whatever.
And assuming that the Naga-breed of Argonians would need the hist trees too.

I'm not sure how much of the lore about hist trees is fact, or just a rumor or tradition ?(

[Ysne]

I feel the same was as Kodama about those references to Hist trees. I have read everything I can find on Argonian lore and references to Hist trees and I cannot find anything that states with certainty that Hist trees are necessary for Argonian reproduction.

[Kodama]

Maybe the tree sap just works like some sort of viagra

[Ysne]

I'm also trying to find the lore where its specified that hist trees can only grow in black marsh.

The closest I can come is part 2 of this page.
http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/marobar.shtml

[DarkAsmodeous]

The argonians are very mysterious, however, it is very clear that the hists are unique to tamriel, and the argonians are tied to the hist, how is not clear.

You have already said the naga are not argonian, and I think you owuld get a lot of heat, from me as well I must admit, if they are, the tsaesci have never even hinted at being argonian in origin, and doing so is not making lore, its invalidating it, seriously, there are some things thats filling in empty lore thats up for grabs, and relating unrelated tings and going against teh general feel and order of nirn.

Chances are that you will end up doing this anyway as you seem to be in favor of it, and I know my oppinion is just that, an oppinion, but at least do not close your mind to me. Macking the naga argonian in origin, or using that name, adds nothing of substance to the mod, it is undoubtedly more trouble then its worth.

[Cogidubnus]

Well, not that I necessarily feel that anybody is wrong, hold on:

You have already said the naga are not argonian, and I think you owuld get a lot of heat, from me as well I must admit, if they are, the tsaesci have never even hinted at being argonian in origin, and doing so is not making lore, its invalidating it, seriously, there are some things thats filling in empty lore thats up for grabs, and relating unrelated tings and going against the general feel and order of nirn.

There are a few things I would take issue with.

The origin of the Tsaesci, is in fact, unknown. I dare anyone here to produce any text that says otherwise. And indeed, if there is any text, then we'l abide by it. But, until such time, there is no guideline for the Tsaesci origin. They could have been made from Cream Cheese, and there would be no official Bethesda lore to contradict our interpretation. Weather or not Bethesda hints at things, there is not actual...official...evidential lore to the contrary. If there is no lore to invalidate...

You state that relating the Argonians and Tsaesci goes aganst the 'feel' of Nirn. Allow me a momentary lapse of decorum - I don't care what you feel about Nirn. I can't debate your feeling. I can't interpret your feeling. You feeling has absoloutely nothing to do with crafting lore - lore is not based upon subjective feeling. If you don't like it, that's one thing. But you're not liking our lore has no relavance to it's accuracy. I'm sorry that I've gotten this mad - but this is a problem.

If you have a beef with us, it's gonna be somewhat like highschool - quote your sources. Be rational. Explain your reasoning, and if it is a lore question, show us the where and why.