Vvar- Conoon Chodala

[raggidman]

Originally posted by IAMTHEEMPEROR
actually, the temple loved nerevar. nerevar founded the temple. the temple just does not beleive in the nerevarine, and it is the nerevarine that is heresy.

Is that the 'Nerevarine' is heresy, or the Nerevarine was heresy?

The Heart of Lorkhan is destroyed by the hand of the Nerevarine.

Vivec invited the Nerevarine to His Temple and gave His support to the destruction of the Heart out of necessity. 2 of the Tribunal are DEAD and the last member is missing.

The politics in the Temple MUST be different, and MUST show reaction for and against any and all changes. Whether or not one assumes that the player completed the Temple Quests and became the Head of the Temple... The real question is how to portray this.

Therefore there might be a write-up by a Pro-faction in the temple and one by an Anti-faction, with the Dissident Priests stirring the waters or supporting the pro-Nerevarine faction.

With the fall of the Ghost Fence and the end of the Blight (though some blighted creatures will undoubtedly still survive) the anti-faction has to be seriously weakened but not be entirely ready to capitulate, esp in the absence of the Nerevarine and Vivec Themselves...

I fully concur with your take on the 'false incarnates' TID: in pacem requiescat

[KuKulzA]

well Dunmer revered Lorkhan... so making the Heart disappear is bad
(although Kagrenac stabilized it with enchantments so the nerevarine could;ve just freed it)
Tribunal are their gods, with two dead yes it is bad....

Dagoth Ur and a lot of his cult are dead, yes it is god (for the majority)
for awhile politics and such were mediated and balanced by the Nerevarine, good

two good and two bad... two bad for Temple, two good for common people

[IAMTHEEMPEROR]

Here is my complete take on that.

Dunmer cherished the heart of Lorkhan, and so did their gods. After the battle of Red Mountain when Nerevar left Dagoth Ur in Red Mountain to guard the heart. Nerevar started making plans to found the temple. Dagoth Ur was tempted for power and used the tools to tap the heart and become a god. Nerevar heard of this, and wanted to punish Dagoth Ur. I guess Azura let this one offense of the Chimer go. Anyways, Nerevar and Dagoth ur battled and wound up both mortally wounded. Dagoth ur, in a quick attempt, bound his soul to the heart, similar to a kind of soul gem thing where the heart was the gem. Doing so, Dagoth Ur had immortality and eternal power as long as the heart survived, but he remained dormant in the heart unable to do anything until the right time. Nerevar was mortally wounded but lived until he saw his temple was born, and a few days later red mountain erupted. After the creation of the Temple, there is a dispute over what happened next. They say Nerevar died from his wounds, or he was on the road to recovery when his generals Vivec, Almalexia, and Sotha Sil killed him in his sleep. Nevertheless, after this, Nerevar's generals became greedy and stole kagrenac's tools, then went to red mountain to find the heart and tap it's power. When they tapped the heart, Azura became furious and cursed all of the Chimer. Their skin became ashy, and their eyes became demon red, and thus the Chimer disappeared and the Dunmer were born. Then the massacre of House Dagoth started because they were still loyal to Dagoth Ur. Vivec, Almalexia, and Sotha Sil took leadership of the temple and became the Tribunal, or Almsivi. They found that their new godly powers were not permanent though, and they needed to use the heart to refresh their godly powers. One day, they were going on a journey to the heart when Dagoth Ur awoke and ambushed them, stealing keening and sunder. After awhile, the god's power dwindled to almost normality, and the Nerevarine appears on Vvardenfell. So you go through the quests until you meet Vivec, and he says how he regrets betraying Nerevar and wants you to kill Dagoth Ur by killing the heart for the good of his people. You do it, and all of the Tribunal gods are gone (Sotha Sil and Alma are dead, and Vivec leaves to live the rest of his life and peacefully die a mortal death). The Nerevarine becomes leader of the temple, and they accept the fact that there were incarnates. there were no other groups who still didn't beleive in an Incarnate, because Azura's prophecy of Incarnates came true, and the Nerevarine was living proof, and sparked a new beleif in Azura.

Sorry about the excruchiatingly long history lesson, but that clears some things up.....

[KuKulzA]

" The Nerevarine becomes leader of the temple, and they accept the fact that there were incarnates. there were no other groups who still didn't beleive in an Incarnate, because Azura's prophecy of Incarnates came true, and the Nerevarine was living proof, and sparked a new beleif in Azura. "
The Nerevarine DOES NOT become the leader of the Temple... but everyone is forced to recognize the nerevarine porphecies... so the second statement is true... about a new belief in Azura... I think it is more of a new respect... and fear... especially those who know about the deaths of the two Tribunal gods...

[IAMTHEEMPEROR]

Gotcha. sorry, there is only so much lore I can memorize before everything mixes together and I lose track of everything, like back when I thought that Akavir were elves that used to live in ruins in cyrodil

[raggidman]

Not sure where your statement that the dunmer revere Lorkhan and or the Heart of Lhorkan is based on.

I had believed that Lorkhan was seen as a renegade God of the humans and therefore not exactly popular with dunmer generally... And it seemed that some folks had even thought of it as possibly the heart of Wulfheart? If you want a really spookt thought, what if it is actually the Heart of the Underking and the Underking is the heartless corporeal remains of Lorkhan?

I can understand that you want to establish 'one truth' as that might seem to make the business of putting together new Lore simpler.

However, having said that, I feel that when trying for general statements you might find it useful to state from whose point of view they are coming, and/or add in some kind of disclaimer as nothing is set in stone...except the odd rune that the elements have not got around to erasing... =)

Not sure it is too useful to return to speculation on the precise nature of the Tribunal's Ancient Deeds in that way though you are correct that we have to represent a shift in point of view. To simply pretend that recent events did not happen is not on, but we do not have to decide that any one view is true and the others are totally false either... :evil grin:

So maybe the way to go is to decide what each faction would find most convenient? And present that.

It does seem that Vivec is missing, but his exact current status is not decided in the Bethsoft Lore. Likewise with the Nerevarine - or is he with tthe Tsaesci, becoming a Dragon???? :another evil grin: Whatever we have been discussing using a 'sending' that appears to be from or of the Nerevarine to guide part of the Vv MQ and KKA has to work on a sound Lore base as he will have to guide his team in modelling Vivec itself. From his point of view that means tryign to establish a series of bases that allow for whatever the several million players might have done with their Nerevarines...

On this basis the best path may be to either fluff over issues totally, or to have a multitude of claims by different groups that all contradict each other so that the TES4 player can choose which he or she believes.

I rather like the second option as that would provide a sound platform for a thousand misunderstandings and furhter disagreement, but it all has to be true to character etc if it is to work...

KKA's assertion that everyone believes there was a true Nerevarine would likely be a powerful current in the trend of beliefs, but I would like to ask you: 'would it be the only belief?' As even though the majority of figures in the temple might believe it, I feel that there are always people who refuse to give up their cherished ideals no matter what, and current events can only be a few = less than 5 years later = not long enough for an entire generation to disappear and another to take up the reigns in human society, and these are Dark Elves who live to be 100s of years old at the least.

It may be that the disbelieving 'faction' or section of the priesthood is disorganised, but it should be there.

One question that has to be answered is have the Apochrypha (that much of your thought seems to follow) been released as revised or accepted Temple Lore? or are they still being kept for the highest ranks only? Cound their dissemmination be a quest?

Once all these questions and more are addressed the answers should help us determine what responses to this Conoon Chodala are possible, or even to revise this document.

:goodjob: all. Confusion to everyone! :yes:

edit: heh, heh, don't forget to create at least 2 groups that believe that the Nerevarine existed, that the prophesy was totally fulfilled and that the best way forward is to deny, deny, deny it all! Either because they believe this would be for the best, or because they have some evil scheme afoot... = more :chaos:

[KuKulzA]

good points all of them...
(but Dunmer DO revere Lorkhan and saw the wemer use of the Heart as necromancy on a dead god. As if they didn't already hate necromancy, this was necromancy on a divine being)...
Lorkhan can be seen as ancestor god, so revered by the Dunmer, however not all Aedroths can be seen this way... and the Nords wanted the Heart cause it was of their god Shor who was their patron god, and the Dwemer cause it would be the Heart of their new god Numidium and a way to ascend

however no doubt people will deny the nerevarine... some will say that he/she is just an upstart, fake ring, forged a blade and added fire enchantment, etc.
and that COULD all be true... if they knew all about Azura's prophecy and the role of the Nerevarine they might not be so hard-headed, they might be scared

[raggidman]

And of course, if they get scared enough they might become violent. ummm, where is the nerevarine by the way =)

Thing is if the Apochrypha are published they will then know a whole lot about the prophesy...

So are the papers that the Nerevarine went to collect likely to be found, or end up with someone specific? Will they be copied and published, or will someone write up a book that quotes from them?

and who will react and how?

Well, I am as usual thinking of the Dissident Priests first, who would want to keep the peace while seeking the truth, and would continue to recruit allies to this end...

but then someone else might try to use the documents to stir up trouble in the Temple - esp with Vivec and the Nerevarine disappeared... paralysing the Temple might be useful for anyone wanting the Great Houses to go to war...

[KuKulzA]

the nerevarine is said to be in Akavir... I am currently discussing the Nerevarine with the Akavir mod... seeing as how both mods want the Nerevarine

[raggidman]

cor, Akavir mod????? :alert: do they want to join ST? (ummm, Beyond Cyrodiil) - raggidman sharpens up his trouble-making skills :]