Can I ask for your expertize?

[jb3]

@morcroft: This is a very interesting techinuque. I'm glad you've mentioned it. I remember doing something a bit similar in nature, "cheating" with textures in places, where your mesh didn't do it. Yet I did this a very long time ago and perhaps on a more primitive level.

So I'll be interested to try it out on the next model. This chessboard is somewhat a next step from the wheel for me. I want to get a good hang of it, the basics.

@KP: Is the following acceptable you think? (see the screenie) Each piece is now approx. 1500 faces. The 13k and 8k ones are groups of 8 pieces. The "LowerPainting" will have more polys, but nothing too spectacular, maybe 100 or so.

I'm done with the pieces mostly. I still want to modify the board, which ironically is a 2 poly plane. Taking how many polys were used for the pieces, it's out of whack. So I want to mold it just a little and -other than the chequered part- I want to apply some nice mahogany wood texture on it.



@Ibsen: Once this is done, someone will need to clean things up in CS. Exchange the models (unless we keep the same name) and merge the 2 categories (MiscItems, Static) into 1. Also, since the board will be adjusted slightly, it might be a good idea to check each chessboard in the esm and correct the positioning slightly to avoid "bleeding". Should you do the honors, so to speak?

P.S. How do I attach a picture to the post, so it's not minimized in size? The site seems to do that automatically.

[jb3]

Hrm... KP, can you perhaps advise a bit?

I'm having a NifSkope problem, which is exactly the problem described by someone in this TesNexus thread. In short: I'm having trouble replacing the mesh in NifSkope. When I "Paste Branch" I have a new root node and I can't seem to merge it with the old branch. After importing the .obj file with the newly modified meshes, I've got NiTriShapeData vs the old one with NiTriStripsData.

I tried to do this as per this CS Wiki tutorial, but they say that you expand the list of Children and change the number and the new node will replace the old one. This is not true, it doesn't work like that.

Do you know how to do this right?

[Koniption]

Originally posted by jb3
[snip]
@KP: Is the following acceptable you think? (see the screenie) Each piece is now approx. 1500 faces. The 13k and 8k ones are groups of 8 pieces. The "LowerPainting" will have more polys, but nothing too spectacular, maybe 100 or so.

I'm done with the pieces mostly. I still want to modify the board, which ironically is a 2 poly plane. Taking how many polys were used for the pieces, it's out of whack. So I want to mold it just a little and -other than the chequered part- I want to apply some nice mahogany wood texture on it.

Yeah, the resulting polycounts should be acceptable. If we need to further decimate anything, we can do that later. You've already cut down on the polys quite a bit, and this will help things a great deal.

Go ahead and beef up the board a little bit. Just don't beef it up too much, lol.

[snip]
P.S. How do I attach a picture to the post, so it's not minimized in size? The site seems to do that automatically.

I usually use the "Imageshack" website, upload my pics, then paste the linky to them. I don't know if you can weasle around the auto image minimization of this site....I think if you click on the thumbnail images, though, that the images then pop up on a new page in full size - have you tried to see if it does that for you?

Hrm... KP, can you perhaps advise a bit?

I'm having a NifSkope problem, which is exactly the problem described by someone in this TesNexus thread. In short: I'm having trouble replacing the mesh in NifSkope. When I "Paste Branch" I have a new root node and I can't seem to merge it with the old branch. After importing the .obj file with the newly modified meshes, I've got NiTriShapeData vs the old one with NiTriStripsData.

I tried to do this as per this CS Wiki tutorial, but they say that you expand the list of Children and change the number and the new node will replace the old one. This is not true, it doesn't work like that.

Do you know how to do this right?

That CS wiki tutorial is for nif format only, really.

To do this with obj formats, you need to make sure you only paste "NiTriShapeData" into NiTriShapes, and "NiTriStripData" into NiTriStrips.

To change NiTriShapes into NiTriStrips, rightclick on NiTriShapes --> Mesh --> Stripify.

To change NiTriStrips into NiTriShapes, do the same, but click on "Triangulate" instead of "Stripify"

Unlike nifs, you can't copy/paste parts within a NiTriStrips/Shape directly into another NiTriStrips/Shape. So rightclick on the NiTriStripsData (etc) that you want to copy into the other obj's NiTriStrips --> "Block" --> Copy Branch...
then go into the window for the other obj, and rightclick in text window and "Block" --> Paste Branch........ok, now you need to switch out the old NiTriStripsData with the new one.


To do this, click on the NiTriStrips, go to Block Details for it, and you'll see a field to far left called "Data"...to far-ish right of that, you'll see a column titled "Value", and you'll that this "Value" column section for the "Data" field, can have data entered into it, and most likely the NiNode # of the old NiTriStripsData in it, as seen in Nifskope. You need to doubleclick on this field until it is editable, erase the old NiNode#, and enter the new NiNode # of the new NiTriStripsData you want to use, then click off of that field so that the change is set. Be sure to "Remove Branch" the old NitriStripsData. Save the obj under new name.

Koniption

[jb3]

OK, I'm mostly done. See the file attached and the screenshot.

What I did with the chessboard object was:

• Re-worked the pieces to reduce the number of polys and made sure there were no problems with the meshes. New poly-count provided in the previous post.
  
• Modified the board and applied a new texture on it. (I eventually didn't carve the board the way I originally intended, too lazy)
  
• Re-located the pieces, so they are on the right squares. Eliminated "floating" problems.
  
• Reduced the size of black soldier pieces, as they were too big.
  

The chessboard renders OK in the game. I tried putting 2, 3 chessboard objects next to each other. No crashes, no significant lags on my side.

I'm still struggling with NifSkope. There is still a small problem with the attached file:

• The Collision Mesh was done in NifSkope and it doesn't seem to have an effect in the game, as you can go through the object.
  
• The chessboard is not centered well. I noticed that at the end and was too lazy to fix it (small issue and I can fix that later).
  
• For whatever reason the board texture (the new one) doesn't render in NifSkope, but it's OK in the game.
  

KP, could you perhaps please look into the Collision Mesh problem? Must be something with NifSkope options, which I can't figure out.

Overall, it was a good practice. Modelling was alright. It's like learning a foreign language. If you know it, you never forget. Still, it was good to refresh my mind how to work with vertices. NifSkope is a pain, as this is something new for me.

KP, btw do you use NURBs these days? Did they get popular? I'm an old school, you know. So I do it either with box modelling or spline modelling method. I prefer the latter.



http://www.filefactory.com/file/ccec91b/...board_rar

[Koniption]

Originally posted by jb3
OK, I'm mostly done. See the file attached and the screenshot.

What I did with the chessboard object was:

• Re-worked the pieces to reduce the number of polys and made sure there were no problems with the meshes. New poly-count provided in the previous post.
  
• Modified the board and applied a new texture on it.
  
• Re-located the pieces, so they are on the right squares. Eliminated "floating" problems.
  
• Reduced the size of black soldier pieces, as they were too big.
  

Good job!

I'm still struggling with NifSkope. The attached file has 2 things, which need improvement:

• The Collision Mesh was done in NifSkope and it doesn't seem to have an effect in the game, you can go through the object.
  
• The chessboard is not centered well. I noticed that at the end and was too lazy to fix it (small issue and I can fix that later).
  
• For whatever reason the board texture (the new one) doesn't render in NifSkope, but it's OK in the game.
  

KP, could you perhaps please look into the Collision Mesh problem? Must be something with NifSkope options, which I can't figure out.

I've already downloaded your file, and will look into it, probably tomorrow. I'll get back with you.

KP, btw do you use NURBs these days? Did they get popular? I'm an old school, you know. So I do it either with box modelling or spline modelling method. I prefer the latter.

What is NURBS??? Honestly, I've heard the term, but never played with such a thing. I never took school courses to learn what I know today, when it comes to modeling and animating. I learned this stuff as a hobby, and scoured the web for online tutorials and such. What I've learned up to today, is the sum of the past 6 years only. So there are a lot of indescrepancies in my learning, when compared to a professionally taught person.

Koniption

[jb3]

Originally posted by Koniption
What is NURBS??? Honestly, I've heard the term, but never played with such a thing. I never took school courses to learn what I know today, when it comes to modeling and animating. I learned this stuff as a hobby, and scoured the web for online tutorials and such. What I've learned up to today, is the sum of the past 6 years only. So there are a lot of indescrepancies in my learning, when compared to a professionally taught person.

Ah, I see. You see, I'm not a pro, so I'm kinda timid. I'm sometimes a little shy to ask (honestly!), as some people are real quick with modelling. I took some 3d modelling classes a couple of years ago and since then I didn't model. You need to be "in it", so I'm kinda outdated.

NURBs stand for "Non-Uniform Rational B-Spline", if I remember correctly. My understanding of NURBs (but I'm an amateur) was that it was a matrix of splines. In other words, with spline you start with 2d. With NURBs you directly start with 3d.

I also remember the term "NURB surfaces". NURBs were supposed to provide quick techniques to mold complex surfaces. There were supposed to be control points (weights), with which you could easily shape them (something like control points of a spline).

At the time when I stopped modelling there was a guy working for Discreet with 3ds Max and he invented it. (Max was owned by Discreet at that time.) The guy was a genius. Yet, he was approached by another company and left Discreet, so there was a big question mark if this would be continued to be developed. I see that it was eventually developed, but I don't know the details, as I never modelled with NURBs, just simple splines.

In the past, there were many problems with NURBS technology and it wasn't stable. You modelled with NURBS at your own risk. The curves would cross and the entire thing would hang.

Another problem was that you couldn't convert it. It's either you started with NURBs surface or you started with some other modelling method. It was not a Modifier, so you couldn't add it to the stack. You couldn't go like "Edit Mesh".

The reason I asked is because at that time, it was supposed to be a revolutionary solution in modelling. So I was curious if it was.

But I don't know, I don't know... Never worked with NURBs. Perhaps there is someone on the team, who can cast more light on this matter.

KP, but you do model with splines, right? Or is this method completely outdated and I need to run and hide in shame. :eek: :bash:

[Koniption]

I take that back - apparently, I have modelled with NURBS, I just didn't fully realize it.

But I have not modelled with splines, yet.

I looked back in Blender, and I remember now using something called "NURBS curve" for making my spiral-like Moon Tear plants, that I made for Blackmarsh. I found that option in the same menu you go to, to add various pre-made mesh shapes into your Blender scene ( the "Add" menu option at top of Blender render windows):

"Add" - "Surface" - "NURBs Curve"

I was having a hard time getting its stem to snake around and loop around, until I tried that Blender option above. It still took me a couple hours to get the grasp of it, with what I was wanting to do, but eventually I did end up making the plant's stem with it.

Koniption

[jb3]

I see. If they fixed NURBS, it would be a great tool.

KP, try splines modelling. In my past experience, it worked much better than box modelling. Suppose you have some concept art, say a photo of a face. You display that photo in Max (or Blender, I suppose) and you then draw splines to match your concept art. The control points are very helpful. Then you convert that to mesh and work in 3d. Splines are 2d only.

Something like the following screenshot, no?



My primitive wheel, which I did earlier (don't laugh, don't laugh) hehe (see I laugh myself) So that wheel, I started with a circle (there was no need to start with a spline, as that was just a primitive test for me). Later I realized I could have started with a pre-defined donut shape, oh well.

Another example. I remember I once discussed with a friend how we would model F-15 plane. And we had 2 different approaches, which actually lead to the same result.

Here is how I wanted to approach it (splines).



And here is my friend's approach (box).



Either way, multiple ways to do the same. And we're talking basics here, no? I suppose for that face example you can start with a box or even a circle and start working.

So... isn't it how you do it? Again, I'm an old school, so I believe there are multiple ways to do this hundred times more efficient, instead of doing it the old "dinosaur" way. That's actually why I initiated this discussion. I wanted to learn how you do it these days.

[Koniption]

I've used 2D images to make a mesh follow the outline of an image. I did that with the crocodile bench I made for BM, not too long ago. I used a rectangle, though, and kept subdividing it on the edges I needed to, to get more pliability out of the mesh, to align the needed edges against the background 2D image.

Also, to make more complicates meshes, I sometimes model different parts of that mesh separately, then align them together, then use boolean to join them together, then weld out the unnecessary vertices that might appear from the boolean joining operation. This works for me, because different meshes (and parts of same mesh) are often best modelled from different pre-made 3D primitives, whether it be spheres, donuts, boxes, etc.

I figure, for the most part, that I still do a lot of things, the "dinosaur" way. Then again, I'm a recent modeler, and wasn't modelling during the "dinosaur" days you speak of, so I could be wrong.

For the face and the plane, it would be easier to model the mirrored half of those images first, then duplicate that mesh, and mirror it on the other side, then weld the middle seam. I see that the face and plane, both are pretty symetrical.

Koniption

[jb3]

Originally posted by Koniption
I've used 2D images to make a mesh follow the outline of an image. I did that with the crocodile bench I made for BM, not too long ago. I used a rectangle, though, and kept subdividing it on the edges I needed to, to get more pliability out of the mesh, to align the needed edges against the background 2D image.

That's the box modelling method. So it's the F-15 plane number 2 example.

As I said, in some cases splines modelling works better for me. I guess NURBS would work great as well, as they are similar in nature to splines.

Originally posted by Koniption
Also, to make more complicates meshes, I sometimes model different parts of that mesh separately, then align them together, then use boolean to join them together, then weld out the unnecessary vertices that might appear from the boolean joining operation. This works for me, because different meshes (and parts of same mesh) are often best modelled from different pre-made 3D primitives, whether it be spheres, donuts, boxes, etc.

Yes. I did it the same way.

Plus I try to use as many modifiers as I can. Sometimes they save you hours of work. Often you would download a modifier, which is not included in the base pack. Yet sometimes there is no any modifier, which would do the trick, which you have in mind. Then you need to use other modelling techniques, like the ones you've just described.

Originally posted by Koniption
I figure, for the most part, that I still do a lot of things, the "dinosaur" way. Then again, I'm a recent modeler, and wasn't modelling during the "dinosaur" days you speak of, so I could be wrong.

Thank you for telling me how you do it. It's good to compare. I was kinda wondering if I don't do it the wrong way after a long break.

Originally posted by Koniption
For the face and the plane, it would be easier to model the mirrored half of those images first, then duplicate that mesh, and mirror it on the other side, then weld the middle seam. I see that the face and plane, both are pretty symetrical.

Of course! You are quite right here. Mirror would work well, since the shapes are symetrical. I did that real quick to illustrate my point.