Dungeon Design Strategy

[Ibsen's Ghost]

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Edited by Ibsen's Ghost - March 2010.

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Here is the basic projected list of how many dungeons we should probably use within the beta regions so far. Note that all existing dungeon entrances are named:

JUNGLE

2x Hist Shrines
1x Mine/Mountain Halls
1x Barsaebic Ruin (inc. Mokumalata)
1x Cave
+ 1 hidden cavern at Tenmar Wall and 1 underground combi-system at Stormhold

BLACKWOOD

2x Forts (inc. Fort Carmine)
2-3x Caves (inc. Hixinoag Mine crystal caves and perhaps a spider-cave)
1x Dead Rootworms (inc. Mortified Rootworm)
1x Barsaebic Ruin
+ 1 sewer system in Gideon

EVERGLADES

1x Hist Shrine
1-2x Dead Rootworms
1x Barsaebic Ruin (inc. Xarphyrial)
1x Haunted Glenbridge (using Fort, Ruin or Sewer tileset)

PARCHLANDS

1x Ayleid Ruin (inc. Mannatyr)
2x Forts (inc. Fort Scorpion)
1x Dead Rootworm
1-2x Caves

DARKMOOR

1x Hist Shrine
2x Barsaebic Ruins
2x Spider Caves

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Earlier post.

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As I'm working on the landscape claims, I'm thinking about where each dungeon location should be placed along with various other items such as signs of the Sarpa, hostile Naga camps, Hist shrines and so on.

Our main dungeons consist of:

• Mossy Ruins
  
• Dead Rootworms.
  
• Mossy Caves.
  
• SI ruins (adapted for use with Hist Shrines...although it may be possible to have a semi-complete new tileset)
  

However, I have a few suggestions for other ideas and that's why I'd like people to consider the poll question. Bear in mind that the Paatru tileset might produce some interesting surprises but, for the time being, this is what we will be working with. If you choose the last option then what it basically means is the idea that we should not use any of these extra dungeon sets, only specialist ones. If you have any other suggestions then please let me know, including abstract ideas for tilesets.

Personally, I'm in favour of using all of the suggestions in the poll but I think we should only use the Lost Spires if all are in favour of doing so as this will mean that we have a responsibility to continue the 'Lost Spires' storyline. I have some ideas for this but whether or not it gets done depends on how popular the idea is with modders.

[Lady Nerevar]

heres a quick rundown of my opinion

mossy ruins: only near cyrodiil, being that they are ayleid.
dead rootrowms: rather rare and totally epic.
caves: plenty of these. they can be made interesting by using jungle pieces or other add ons. a lot of variety can be achieved with this tileset.

lost spires: personally, im not in favor of having this because it relies on a person having played lost spires and wanting to continue. if a person has not played it it will seem confusing and possibly random.

imo there should be a couple overgrown imperial forts too, to show that the cyrodils tried to conquer black marsh. i havent seen the SI tilesets, but the screenshots make them out to be promising (esp. if retextured).

dungeons should define the land imo, especially if that land is black marsh. BM is widely regarded as the most dangerous and most mysterious province, dungeons should reflect this. they should be dark, wet, and creepy: the player should think twice before entering them. in fact, i think that the whole land should be set up as a dungeon (it would theoretically be possible to create fake exterior cells separate from the main landscape).

in fact, i feel that black marsh, in its current state, feels too friendly. im not scared of the screenshots, i dont feel like something is going to drag me under the water if i step in the lake or that i will get some horrible disease if i approach that animal. imho this atmosphere is what really defines black marsh, and its definitely something to consider when building.

just my two cents hrug:

[Koniption]

Originally posted by Lady Nerevar
[...]lost spires: personally, I'm not in favor of having this because it relies on a person having played lost spires and wanting to continue. if a person has not played it it will seem confusing and possibly random.[...]

Yes, that is a good point. We better steer clear of Lost Spires stuff.

in fact, I feel that black marsh, in its current state, feels too friendly. I'm not scared of the screenshots, I dont feel like something is going to drag me under the water if I step in the lake or that I will get some horrible disease if I approach that animal. imho this atmosphere is what really defines black marsh, and its definitely something to consider when building.

just my two cents hrug:

I know what you mean. But we can tweak the look & atmosphere later on. We won't be able to satisfy everyone. We'll be better able to grasp how to make things murkier and darker, after certain things have been put in place. Who knows, maybe the Unique Landscapes people can help out in the future with dark theme add-ons, if ours are too cheery. I know we'll also need nasty and grisly quests, too, besides more.

One problem, is the lack of unique Blackmarsh creatures to "catch that disease" from or to "drag you under the lake". I'm working on a mosquito right now, from which the player can catch diseases from. But creatures are a lot of work, and can develop slowly.

Koniption

[Ibsen's Ghost]

In terms of creatures, keep checking up on progress over here: Creatures of Black Marsh .

Regarding LS, I just tend to think that BM is the perfect place to develop the story and that the LS story is soooo popular that few will not have played it. Even if they don't then you can make the story accessible so that it's not necessary to have played the original.

I always liked forts but I tend to think that it's these that should be sparse and closer to Cyrodiil as opposed to the Ayleid ruins as the lore states that the 'Barsaebic Ayleids' that once inhabited the BM might well have once been a common sight.

And IMO the SI ruins might well fit fairly well alongside the sort of Aztec/Mayan designs that will characterise the central regions.

As for the creepiness, we only just started! :eek: I recall your point about the BW region earlier and I'm aiming to add those Baobab trees to bulk it up and also to perhaps change the water to something more suitable. However, I'm certainly not going much further than that even if I do end up making these additions because the transition would be too great. I'd like the player to feel that the landscape is gradually changing. The Everglades are pretty murky, Darkmoor will be dark-ish but Murkwood will be absolutely shit-your-pants territory. =)

[Lady Nerevar]

I know what you mean. But we can tweak the look & atmosphere later on. We won't be able to satisfy everyone. We'll be better able to grasp how to make things murkier and darker, after certain things have been put in place. Who knows, maybe the Unique Landscapes people can help out in the future with dark theme add-ons, if ours are too cheery. I know we'll also need nasty and grisly quests, too, besides more.

imo, you need to do it right from the start. if you cant be bothered to add atmosphere yourself other people certainly wont bother either. its much harder to try and fix things later on, since you have to redo months of work.

i do agree that there needs to be a transition.

as for creepyness in creatures and the like, it doesnt matter if they actually do anything (or if they even exist) as long as the player feels like they do. i remember being terrified of the dwemer ruins in morrowind because they had all those creeking noises: i thought something would explode or come to life even after i knew that it was just little red sound nodes that activated when i got close. this kind of stuff is relatively simple to do and adds tons of feeling. some growling noises, subtle hisses, wind, etc. will keep the player on edge. new weather types (darker, foggier) are another simple way to make it more gloomy. i think its largly about mystery: the player doesnt have to know whats there, imagination often makes things a whole lot scarier than a game can.

[Ibsen's Ghost]

I'd be more than happy for someone to get modding on Darkmoor and, although it's outside of the beta regions, Murkwood as well so that the 'creep factor' is cranked up. I just played 'Gates to Aesgaard 2', the first time I've actually played Oblivion in years, but I really liked some of his models and his atmospherics are legendary....yet the dungeons are much easier to make creepy than the landscapes.

Really creepy dungeons are more the preserve of my old favourite game, the Thief series but ThePriest909, at least in the first episode, achieved some amazing feats. Perhaps you'd like to try for yourself, LN?

[Lady Nerevar]

i admit that it sounds interesting, but at the moment im buried in work. maybe at a later date.

[Xae]

Regarding the architecture, how about making the cave formations more natural? I don't mean the tilesets or wall/roof meshes but rather the layout. Oblivion's caves were all contrived labyrinthine tunnel systems with the occasional larger room, which is both uninteresting and unnatural. I'd like to see more huge cavernous spaces with underground lakes, tunnels that aren't rectangular and never turn in 90 degree angles. Paludal Caverns from Everquest is a fair example.

[Ibsen's Ghost]

Thanks Xaeaix. That's an interesting point. I will also be adding some of Sachiel's cave models which add a little extra mini-tileset with some nice little bridges and ledges....the idea is to make them more rugged and less 'designed'.

[Deeza]

I've had a thought about this and personally, I don't see caves fitting into Black Marsh outside the transitional region. It just occurred to me, where is the rock for the caves to go through? Obviously, there should be some near the border, but it would look a bit bizarre to have rocky caves in a landscape composed entirely of mud!

I agree that, as Ibsen said, the current beta area could be a transition between Cyrodiil and Black Marsh. So we can have caves and Marsh Elf ruins in the beta region, but because they're below ground they should probably be mostly flooded.

We can retexture the water so that it looks like thick mud the player can barely see through, so that going underground is a desperate hunt for pockets of air (in larger chambers) so that the player can stay alive.

Another trick we can play with the ruins is to have them crazily tilted (within the limits of the player being able to walk normally) to give the impression that their foundations have given way into the marsh and some parts of the structures have sunk.

I also agree with LadyN, new weather effects would be great. The trick is finding someone with the time and ability to make them.

Personally, I have lots of ideas for making the inner marshes very intimidating, though I don't yet have the experience at region generation to put them into practice.