Kilgorin sword in Silgrad Tower: Oblivion

[Razorwing]

Thankyou!

Btw I entered it into the collection and put in some information I found on the net, but it would be nice to also be able to include some information on how it relates to our mod. I wasn't around when it was added and I don't think there's any info on the old forum, but I have the impression that it was important early on.

[Quentin Fortune]

Here we go.

Erm ... I need a very detailed feedback, if and how it worked out, because I used this texture to experiment with the nvidia filter for the bump map ... I followed the tutorial precisely, but I'm not sure, if I understood it completely, especially at the end ?(

And since I can't test it with the model ... you have to tell me.

I didn't do that much about the spac map, just a bit of refinery here and there ... oh, and I have absolutely no information about Kilgorin, its history and the relationship to our mod, sorry.

Greetings

Quentin

[Razorwing]

Thanks!

The specular map works great, but I'm not sure if the bump map is doing anything to it. From what I know bump, specular, displacement and other textures can only make use of grayscale variations. Perhaps it is a displacement texture? I tested it as seen in the fourth render, and it's definitely a powerful technique, but since it changes the percieved geometry of the model it also distorts the original color map, which is made to fit the geometry of the physical mesh.

The first render shows the Kilgorin sword with nothing but the original color texture. The second render shows it with bump and specular/gloss texture, while the third shows it using a host of different maps (using your two textures). The differences between scr #2 and #3 are subtle but if one looks closely at them by flipping back and forth it can be noticed. The fourth render shows all effects + displacement mapping using your bump map (6% displacement strength).

About it's background; oh, ok. The sword has a great intrinsic beauty to it and I'd love to see it back in Valderon's (the NPC) hands, though I hope next time there'll be some way for the player to get to use it.

[Quentin Fortune]

Great ... yesterday I didn't know what a displacement map is and today I made one. :lmao:

As I said, I'm not sure, if I understood the final part of the tutorial correctly, and since I'm not a modeller all those different maps mean very close to zilch to me.
(Alright, slightly over-exaggerating ... I learned what a specular map is and I think I understand the intricate meanings of a bump map by now, but I got quite confused when they use a nomenclatura I just learned and describe something completely different - or at least this is how it sounds to me :eek: )

I made you a new one and maybe you could provide me with a - easy to understand - list of all the different maps and textures that we might need. A short description what they're needed for, colour or grey and -very important - if there is a different term for it. I'd appreciate it immensely.

Greetings

Quentin

P.S.: OH, before I forget. Excellent work :goodjob:

Quentin

[Razorwing]

Originally posted by Quentin Fortune
Great ... yesterday I didn't know what a displacement map is and today I made one. :lmao:

As I said, I'm not sure, if I understood the final part of the tutorial correctly, and since I'm not a modeller all those different maps mean very close to zilch to me.
(Alright, slightly over-exaggerating ... I learned what a specular map is and I think I understand the intricate meanings of a bump map by now, but I got quite confused when they use a nomenclatura I just learned and describe something completely different - or at least this is how it sounds to me :eek: )

You know me, I hate being wrong so I cover all bases whenever I can. In other words perhaps you made a displacement map but I don't think so, I think displacement maps only use grayscale as well (or so my impression is from reading Max's manual). I don't really know what you did or how it's used on a model but the thing is that Max has several different "shaders", or so it calls them, which are altogether different systems of using textures, and it's possible that you made a texture for another shader system than the one I use, which is called Blinn. My only reason for using Blinn is that I know it works with Morrowind models, so I just stuck with it, figuring that it would probably work with Oblivion as well.

( Oh, and after re-reading the info in Max I no longer think Displacement mapping is the same as Normal mapping :dunce: Displacement only seems to push the polygons outward, and the grayscale in the displacement map determines how much each polygon is pushed... that would certainly explain the results I've been getting with it in the past )

Originally posted by Quentin Fortune
I made you a new one and maybe you could provide me with a - easy to understand - list of all the different maps and textures that we might need. A short description what they're needed for, colour or grey and -very important - if there is a different term for it. I'd appreciate it immensely.

Okidoki, here goes. I'm copy-pasting a lot from Max, and have included a couple of images that shows how the texture map acts.

Color map

First off we have the color map, also referred to as a diffuse map, which is the base texture for any normal model. Like kilgorin.bmp. I'm sure everyone is familiar with it.

Bump map

Bump mapping makes an object appear to have a bumpy or irregular surface. When you render an object with a bump-mapped material, lighter (whiter) areas of the map appear to be raised, and darker (blacker) areas appear to be low. Bump mapping uses the intensity of the map to affect the surface of the material. In this case, the intensity affects the apparent bumpiness of the surface: white areas protrude, and black areas recede.

Use bump maps when you want to take the smoothness off a surface, or to create an embossed look. Keep in mind, however, that the depth effect of a bump map is limited. If you want extreme depth in a surface, you should use modeling techniques instead. For example, the Displace modifier pushes surfaces or faces in and out based on the intensity of a bitmap image. (Displacement mapping is another way to do emboss a surface.)

Grayscale images can make effective bump maps. Maps that shade between white and black generally work better than maps with hard edges between the white and black areas.

The bump map amount adjusts the degree of bumpiness. Higher values render as higher relief; low values render as low relief. [...] Bumps don't appear on the silhouette of bump-mapped objects.

Specular/Glossiness map

A "specular map" can be said to consist of three maps; color, level and glossiness.

Color: Unlike Specular Level or Glossiness mapping, which alter the intensity and location of specular highlights, specular mapping alters the color of specular highlights.

Level: White pixels in the map produce full specular highlights. Black pixels remove the specular highlights completely, and intermediate values reduce the specular highlights accordingly. Specular level mapping usually works best when you assign the same map to both Specular Level and Glossiness. -- this means that it's not necessary to make separate specular level and glossiness maps, just specular level and optionally specular color.

Glossiness: A map assigned to glossiness determines which areas of the whole surface are more glossy and which areas are less glossy, depending on the intensity of colors in the map. Black pixels in the map produce full glossiness. White pixels remove glossiness completely, and intermediate values reduce the size of the highlight. Mapping the glossiness component is different from mapping specular color. Mapping glossiness alters the location of highlights, while specular mapping alters the color of highlights. Glossiness mapping usually works best when you assign the same map to both Glossiness and Specular Level.

Opacity map

Opacity maps can make an object partially transparent. Lighter (higher-value) areas of the map render as opaque; darker areas render as transparent; and values in between are semi-transparent. Specular highlights are applied to transparent areas of the opacity map, as well as to opaque areas, creating the effect of glass. If it's wanted to make the transparent areas to look like holes, map the specular level as well.

Displacement map

A displacement map displaces the geometry of surfaces. Unlike bump mapping, displacement mapping actually changes the geometry of the surface. Displacement maps apply the gray scale of the map to generate the displacement. Lighter colors in the 2D image push outward more strongly than darker colors, resulting in a 3D displacement of the geometry.

Reflection map

This is the technique that can create mirrors and other reflective surfaces, but in my opinion it's doubtful if Oblivion will support it.

[Quentin Fortune]

Great. :goodjob: Thanks a lot for this list, it will definitely help me to understand better what you modelling wizards need when you ask for textures.

One question though, what are parallax maps and what do they do? I stumbled over this in the tutorial and the explanation

If you don't know what parallax mapping is, and don't need a specular map, skip this step completely.

didn't help me that much.

Besides, did the second map work?

Greetings

Quentin

P.S.: I saw that you wrote perhaps in your first post, but I couldn't let pass the opportunity for an old joke from my university times:
Yesterday I didn't know how to write engineer and today I am one. 'Engineer' is 'Ingenieur' in German ... can be tricky to write for some people.

Quentin

[Razorwing]

Quentin Fortune:
Ok, cool.

Umm, which second map? I can't see it in the thread.

I ran into this explanation of Parallax mapping:
"A parallax map (also known as a Photonic map, Offset map or Virtual Displacement map) will cause your flat material to look 3D. Parallax maps compliment bump maps and normal maps. When you look at a parallax mapped material at an angle, the high points will obscure the low points behind them. This is only worthwhile for textures that have depth ranging at least a few centimeters, like deep-set bricks or stone. [...] Imagine your texture in 3D and create a new texture in grayscale where white corresponds to the pixels closest to you and black corresponds to pixels farthest from you."
The rest of the article only applies to Valve stuff.

I also found a PDF article called "Parallax Mapping with Offset Limiting: A PerPixel Approximation of Uneven Surfaces" which isn't as hard a read as the snazzy title implies, which I attached to this post. It highlights how parallax mapping ties in with bump- and normal mapping, but I think it's mostly intended for people who are working directly with graphics .

Neither 'parallax', 'photonic', 'offset' or 'virtual displacement' are terms Max uses. I think it's called "Height Map" in Max, but I'm not sure... I'll investigate the matter more, but in the meantime as the Wikipedia entry says it works the same as a bump map, i.e. the lighter parts seem closer to the viewer and the darker seem farther away.

[Quentin Fortune]

Thanks a lot for the explanation and the file. =)

Speaking of files ... I forgot to attach it. Here we go again.

Greetings

Quentin

[Razorwing]

I did some research on ESF and there seems to be a parallax expert there called raziel014. As he explains,
"The illusion created by the height maps tend to disapear when there is no direct light source pointed at it. But you can see that there are some bump effect near the fireplace and it's the same stone texture all around the walls.
[...]
Parallax mapping itself reflects no light. So you can have a wall that is full parallax mapped and no normal map, and you wouldn't even see the parallax. Cause parallax mapping is dependent on the normal and specular maps to create the great illusion. It's the normal maps that define where the light can go at which angle. And the specular maps define more shinyness."

He also posted a very informative article on parallax mapping, which among other things has a link to a program which he says can help when creating these kinds of maps. Now... I'm not sure how all of this ties in with 3D Studio Max, but I'll definitely investigate that as well.

Here's one of the parallax textures he made... amazing effect, isn't it? :pop: :



And here's how the sword looks with your new bump map:

[noremorse]

I think we need a higher res diffuse texture for the sword. But it looks great none-the-less.

Here's one of the parallax textures he made... amazing effect, isn't it?

Wow. :pop: