Ok cool, I kind of snap when I hear beth bashing. These "crappy" 2$ plugins are fine micro-additions, choose to buy them or not, the smallest thing beth has ever done should not define the company.
I also got issues with Tod bashing, Tod is passionate, and is trying to make ES his own, he'll find his niche.
Anyway, back on topic, hehe.
Yeah, I think we all posted at the same time. DA, look about two, three posts back.
And just for the halibut...who is Tod, anyway? *smiles obliviously*
What I mean is this.
There should be no fundamental truth to how things came to be, even for the devs, be it the gods, evolution, or simple survival of the fitest, there should be evidence supporting them all, and evidence not supporting (but not negating) it as well. The world of nirn has many unanswerable mysteries, and the origin of life is perhaps the greatest one.
Rather than have one be correct, or have them all fit together to solve the puzzle, make them contradict, attempt to disprove, or even slander the other theories, these people believe strongly in what they believe, but in order to show its just a myth, and to have it fit in, there must be evidence to the contrary.
When I say "just a myth" I do not mean it is false, because no one knows
Tod is the current head Dev. of Bethesda.
Ted was the head Dev. for Daggerfall and author of over a third of all in-game books, as well as the pocket guide. I have had the good fortune of discussing elsweyr with him.
Hmmm....
A compelling argument, perhaps, and one that I would fain want to dismiss. You make a point - it perhaps adds to the atmosphere. But, (oh, but, word that dismisses all before it - how we loathe and love you!), you are talking about going a level deeper than what we are talking about.
Allow me to elaborate -we are creating what is known as 'lore-master's notes' for most of this. These are the actual events - and they will be represented in-game. We worked hard on this - there will be a direct effect, and interpretation, in-game. These are the actual events - the true story.
Now, if I'm hearing what you are saying correctly, then I would offer this as a peace, perhaps. Corruptions of the lore would be fine - but, there are limited applications. For example, the Tsaesci Lords saw the creation of thier race - that cannot be corrupted. There are perhaps others - I'll think about it.
I'm not necessarily in favor of what you are saying. But, this is the sort of thing that individual chracters in-game might do - something we are not ready for at this stage. Let's get a working plan going, that fits and whirrs, before we decide to throw a little sand in it.
Now there, is something I will tell you know, i will get annoying about.
Perhaos a change in your lore is in order, you have worked hard and I understand, but felxibility is a good thing.
Seeing the creation of their race touches and messes with so much lore throughout all of nirn that it will be impossible to do damage control. It weakens the compeling nature of lore in its open endedness.
"Note: This is a conglomeration of the Akaviri creation myth. It bears many similarities to the Tamrielic creation myth, but differences exist, as is to be expected. This is the generally-accepted version, but the races of Akavir have their own variants. In fact, the atheistic Tang Mo do not believe it at all. The variants are endless; I will not go into them here.
In the beginning, there was Void. This was the Kang, the Black, endless and without light, heat, or substance. The only object present was the God-Dragon, Shi, the Great Swimmer, the yellow Creator. He was the Yellow Dragon. He ploughed the depths of the Kang without time, as this was but a concept; time had no place in this inky infinitude. The God-Dragon was lonely, and created out of himself the 8 Sons, the other divine dragons who would be his company. This is called the Hash-Kra, or the Great Flame; Shi's fiery breath gave light and heat to the void. The remnants of this elemental blast became the sun, the Orb. His children were;
Kung ? the Black Dragon, Lizard of the Moon.
Los ? the Green Dragon
Resh ? the Blue Dragon
Goron ? the Red Dragon, War-Child
Shi-Tse ? The White Dragon
Aber ? the Brown Dragon
Nagi ? the first Grey Dragon
Agi ? the second Grey Dragon, and Nagi's twin.
These are the 9 Gods of the Akaviri continent; the Shin. They were the first beings. The Kang now had light, warmth, and life, yet the God-Dragons became bored of their play amongst themselves, and sought to create a new realm, a physical world where they could fulfil their desires to create and destroy, as all gods have. With their combined breath they created the world of Viri, merely ?the land?. Los, Resh, Aber and Shi-Tse became the guardians of the compass points; north south east and west respectively, with their father Shi at the centre. This was the absolute perfection of the Kang. Akavir was it's centre, the other lands given away to barbarous and easily forgettable nations. This is accepted as the other continents. The golden continent of Akavir was a realm of perfection, a paradise where life and death flourished. At first the gods enjoyed the play, until they grew quarrelsome. Resh and Los grew angry at Kung over the governance of Viri, and stabbed him with their astral claws. Kung retreated, and sulked, nursing his wounds which shone silver with the divine light inside. During the day he sulks, plotting against his brothers, while at night he sullenly spreads himself across Viri, his black body shining with his god-wounds. He then retreats, and an endless cycle plays. He hopes to gain the apologies of his brothers. Evidently he does not have this yet. The two moons are physical manifestations of the twins, Nagi and Agi.
Akavir, though perfect and untainted by the sentient slaves of other continents, was lacking in something. It needed rulers, finite beings that could safe-guard the land and make it theirs. They therefore created the lesser dragons, the beasts that could fly, mate; reproduce, yet with vast powers, and almost endless lives. The dragons grew and spread over all of Akavir, and to other continents also, yet their focus was always upon the former. There were many types, all descended from the different Shin. On Akavir all was well. The Dragons mainly concentrated in the north, around giant stone keeps that they had constructed for themselves.
For many millennia, all was well, until the dragons of Akavir grew discontent with their lot. They numbered in the millions, yet they were under the oppressive yoke of the Shin, who would not allow them immortality or any other pleasures other than those of Viri. Using their great power, they rebelled, and the Sundering began. They flew into the heavens to challenge their God's, who slew them in their droves. Still they attacked, until one, named Aberinth, was able to attack Shi himself. He wounded him on his right side, a small one, yet enough to allow the contained energy of infinitude and endless time out into the open. In an infinite explosion of flame and raw power, the dragons were flung back to Viri, their power to ascend to the heavens lost forever. Their home, now Kamal, was plunged into eternal winter, and they abandoned their ancestral homes, the now ill-fortuned Doom Keeps. They moved south. In such a confrontation, vast and unknowable energies had been released, and several lesser deities, known collectively as the Lin, though still immensely powerful, had been created. They chose not exist entirely in Viri; the Dragons still had immense power at this point, and they created their own realm, separate yet parallel to Viri, which they named Naraka, or True Home. As they had used their powers to create it, they could mould it in any way they wished. They still visited Viri, and apparently so do today; they are worshipped by some of the lesser mortals. The gods do not interfere; they are cosmic beings, and do not interfere in mortal workings unless such workings affect their own, unknowable schemes. (A note; it is postulated that the Kamal are a race of Lin who every year at the behest of their tribe leader or perhaps a higher Lin attack the races of Akavir in order to establish a hegemony between Naraka and Viri; this is only a theory).
The beings created were;
? The Rak'sa: these were the indirect creation of Goron, the war-child. They are violent, yet not necessarily evil, beasts. As with all of the Naraka dwellers, they formed tribes within their own dimension, and their portrayal is varied.
? The Yaksa-Deva: these were beings created by Shi-Tse and Los. They are neither good nor evil, and capable of both. For their own, unknowable reasons, they oppose the Rak'Sa, and many wars have taken place on Viri and across the dimensions. (Note: Various tribes of Rak'Sa and Yaksa-Deva seem to relate directly to the daedra and the daedra princes. It has been rumoured that Sheogorath is highly worshipped by some Tsaesci as ?the Sage?, a leader of a particular tribe. The full number of tribes, as with the other Lin, is unknown; they could be countless. We know of few though).
? The Naga: These were snake-like beings that hold attributes of the Dragons and the Eel Lord, Aber. They are serpentine and civilised. Some say that their societies in Naraka are more civilised than others, having royalty and class ranks, rather than tribe structure. This is yet to be verified however.
? The Garuda: These are bird-like beings, coming from the Winged One Kung. They involve themselves least within temporal affairs, content to remain in their own realm, and war exclusively with other Lin.
? The Ashra: Benevolent giants who help mortals, for a price. They interfere, sometimes unnecessarily, in mortal affairs, almost as much as the Rak'Sa and the Yasksa-Deva, though usually to bring about something good.
A note on the Lin ? after the Shin and the Dragons, the Lin are the next tier down on the celestial scale. They are neither grouped as ?good? nor ?bad?, as in their incorporeal divine state this is immaterial. Such is the same with the Shin. The Dragons are not divine and are temporal, and so can be called good and evil. The Akaviri races recognise the Shin as the supreme creators, yet as everyday gods they are impractical; they do not interfere in worldly affairs. The Lin are much more interested in the realm of Viri, and therefore their great power allows them to be worshipped as gods and spirits, inhabiting every object and imbuing it with their essence. They can appear in physical form, yet choose to toy with mortals, and can be summoned to someone's bidding, with appeasement. They are physical beings; yet their power, form and nature are different when in Naraka than when on Viri. It is said that people can travel to Naraka at the behest of powerful magic or a summoning by a Lin lord or God. The word ?lord? and ?god? are interchangeable; different tribes have whole cosmologies that revolve around one tribe of Lin, with the lord acting as a god.
After the inadvertent creation of the Lin and the humbling of the Dragons and their migration south, the Shin recognised a need for mortal races to rule Akavir, much like the rest of Viri, yet who could not rebel against them directly or interfere with their immortal plans. Akavir could no longer be a playground for the Gods; it was the fault of the Dragons, who grew jealous. Thus, they created the four main tribes, or races, of mortal beings, which the Dragons subjugated in jealousy, and used for their own means. Men, the Tsaesci, the Tun cat people and the Tang Mo inhabited Akavir, and thus begun the Age of Wood, the material age, and the Mythic Age ended.
It would be wrong to see the Dragons as evil; though immortal, they are finite, and trapped, and dissatisfaction at what was perhaps the subjugation under less-than-perfect Gods is perfectly justifiable. It is possible to see what followed as divine punishment for their crimes; the near-complete destruction of their kind. One will never know."
Does that not state it is myth? Does it not state that there are variations and that other disagree?
And this seven headed dragon, what is it? Since it has been seen as you said it cannot be Divine, as before the fall of red mountain they could not venture to nirn. It cannot be a deadra as they can only create deadra. It is not Sithis I am sure. It seems to be trying to fit a role that htere is no room for it to be in. The nine divine actively offer blessings and are known by all the races of nirn, that's official by the way.
This works perfectly as a myth, it is very weak as fact.
just to add on (no, I'm not trying to change anybody's mind, just explaning some of the stuff I'm working on).
To me, I treat everything I'm writing on as just "interpretations". They are just like encyclopedia in that they present things they "think" are facts. Encyclopedias CAN be wrong.
1) the dragon-gods are very real. They may not be "gods" of the same standard as the Aedra, but they are more like the Daedric princes, except that while the Daedric princes lived on their home plane in Oblivion, they lived on Nirn as they home. (actually, the shape-changing ability of Daedra Princes coincides, so the dragon-gods could well be similar type of existence, just with different homes) There are still a couple (trio actually) sitting in Akavir, so these are not that mythical.
2) The Tsaesci betrayed their god. that's fact to me. But exactly how, nobody knows for sure. The Taesci Empire is still young (barely 5000+ years old. That's psychologically ard 80 years to the demi-immortals). To most of them, the events are still considered "recent" history. But of course, what they tell others and what they knew actually happened does not have to be the same. To most of the shorter-lived races, all they know of "Naga" is that they were some mythical creature that nobody has ever seen (at least to the short lived) which were the supposed ancestor of the Tsaesci. Most of the records are passed down either from the Tasesci Empire (those that they allow, and could be tampered with to glorify themselves) and from the nearly as old Tosh Raka (quite the opposite. could be biased against Tsaesci) and could disagree in some aspects.
3) The real "myths" are those of the pre-tsaesci Empire which was wiped out. And to better subjugate the survivors, the Tsaesci "cleansed" their culture by destroying written and verbal (just execute those who knows) records to try to "erase" that culture which was fueling the slave rebellions. To most of the races, the Tsaesci Empire was the start of history. So any reference to pre-tsaesci eras could be mixture of rumors, imagination and slivers of truth. Any post-betrayal records could be suspect too due to possible Tsaesci-tampering. but this is kept somewhat in check by other long-lived memories, like Tosh Raka.
4) not all the elder races are gone. Many have escaped. In my imagined Akavir, among them are the eldest race is the mysterious Asura, the earth-dancers, who disappeared slightly before the Tsaesci Betrayal. (They could have foretold the future and decided to avoid the whole mess by taking a loooong tour). Others included the Apsara heaven-dancers, Ghandarva the scent-eaters and Kimnara the wood-singers. This is opportunity for a game setting where a player can learn more about the "truth" or discover that the "truth" is something that is quite far from what is passed down, should be come into contact with on of these elder races in hiding. Of course, these are opportunities to replace certain part of "well-known facts" with a "better" version... heh heh
If you read all that, congratulations sir. It's somewhat like a rite of passage. In and of the fact that it is difficult, like most rites of passage.
EDIT: Talking about post above Sphr
The seven-headed dragon was divine. The others were not - not mentioned here, because not necessary. if you must classify it, it is probably daedra. But, your gonna have to read EVERYTHING by Sphr to get the grasp on what the Shin, Lin, and all of that is.
. By the way, this is Sphr's stuff - you see why we respect him so.
And that is the creation MYTH, yes. The Kahjiit have one much like it.
The dragon gods are not gods though right?
Also, # 3 seems like a good way to move towards making this all work, but it needs to be made clear in the mod.
Replacing some facts with more vague things is good. Especialy what happened before the tsaesci were actualy in existance.
Also, the way in which the dragon gods created them should be very, very vague, how should they know? Was this relay life from nothing? Who knows?
With that, as well as the other creation myths (so long as tehy get equal attention) you will have a nice, multi-leveled, vague and interesting mythology that violates no lore (so long as the dragon gods are never proved, but strongly supported, perhaos they were something different, but interpreted by the tsaesci, the khajiit see dragons as big cats!)
The divine CANNOT walk on mundas, I must make that clear, the heart of lorkhan and the first tower (red mountain) ensure that, they also allow mundas to exist without the deadra. It was the only tower after the zero-stone to be made by the Divine.