Garuda race and other possibilities

[The Modax Jago]

Lore is very important,.... I want to make sure to create something accurate. I want my model to feel at home in Oblivion.

[Ibsen's Ghost]

True, but I find the very fact that there is some lore for such creatures (and yet not much) particularly promising. Why is there a lack of such things? Have records been erased in a way that is linked with the other 'beast races' i.e. to suppress them? Was genocide attempted and a cover-up followed? Furthermore, what can we take from the BM lore that supports their existence? (After all, it's probably best placed of all regions to support them)

Oh yes, and I could perhaps get started on making a new generic voice set =) .

[SACarrow]

Although I usually inhabit the northern swamps, any race of this type would be Hist-Uplifted, is that correct? Not much of a lore addition, but I think Grey told me that once about the Hist.

Steve

[Ibsen's Ghost]

Originally posted by SACarrow
Although I usually inhabit the northern swamps, any race of this type would be Hist-Uplifted, is that correct? Not much of a lore addition, but I think Grey told me that once about the Hist.

Steve

I'm not quite sure what you're referring to here. I'm obviously familiar with Hist-Sap but don't know the full ins-and-outs of it as you refer to here e.g. 'Hist-Uplifted'? Can you direct me towards an enlightening lore source?

[SACarrow]

Sorry. I got overly referential; this reference was to David Brin's Uplift series, which started with Startide Rising. In brief: humans "uplifted" chimps, dolphins and (to a lesser degree) gorillas to sentience. Then they made First Contact and found a galaxy full of intelligence, all of which had been uplifted by another.

Except, apparently, for humans.

Steve

[Deeza]

I think I can clarify this for you.

Basically, the working assumption for Black Marsh's lore is that the Hist somehow transferred their sentience to indigenous reptiles and amphibians of the swamps - Argonians from tree lizards, Naga from snakes, Paatru from frogs. Various other creatures such as the ogre-like lizardmen and Wamasus electric salamanders may also be "failed" attempts to induce sentience, and are only moderately intelligent.

This isn't in official lore, but is a reasonable enough assumption to make, knowing what little we do about the Hist and the origins of the Argonians.

[Ibsen's Ghost]

Thanks for helping out, Deeza :goodjob:

Okay, so we're talking Hist sap here then. Can anyone confirm for me whether the Empire, or indeed any of the other countries, know a great deal about Hist sap and what their attitude might be towards it? I think I already have an idea in this respect but I'd still like a little feedback if someone can make a lore-enlightened observation or two.

I also need to explore this idea of their 'becoming' in a little more detail, if such details exist, particularly how and when this transference might have occurred and whether it remains ongoing. Are creatures still experiencing these effects? Was the 'uplift' sudden or gradual? What might accelerate or suppress it?

And do you think any outside forces might have taken action to control, use or experiment on the hist sap, other than the 'Blackwood Company'? Have any Daedra been associated with the Hist or would be likely to take an interest in it?

[Deeza]

I think that the Hist basically ARE Daedra, more or less, in that they're spirits left over from before the world existed. They're massively powerful and the trees they appear to be are just their physical form. Their roots go all the way into Oblivion, and their branches (presumably) all the way up into Aetherius.

As for the rest, there isn't much lore available on this, because nobody has ever explored Black Marsh in detail in an Elder Scrolls game. However, I looked over what does exist a while ago, and made up some "monkeylore" on the subject. It's called "the Hist creation myth" (though in keeping with the alien nature of the Hist, it reads more like a computer log) and is at the bottom of the big list in this thread:

Deeza's Big Ol' Black Marsh Literature List

Basically, the idea is that after the Hist were stranded in the physical world when it came into existence, most of them were killed off by the wars between the ancestors of Elves and Humans. They manipulated the climate of black marsh to make it extremely hostile to those peoples, and as an additional defence they decided to create a new race in their image, to be their protectors. They used the swamp's native creatures as a base for this new people, and had several successes and failures, the successes being the Argonians and other amphibian races of Black Marsh.

And regarding whether it's still going on, I think yes, all the time. One of the Bethesda developers is on record for saying a while ago that Argonians may be born non-sentient and only recieve intelligence when they come of age and drink Hist sap.

This is all guesswork, so I think it's safe to say that nobody in the Empire has any idea what's really going on with the Hist. Even the Blackwood Company seemed to be just messing around with the sap, with no real idea of what they were doing.

[Ibsen's Ghost]

Thanks, Deeza. That was useful! It also confirms my thinking on the Hist after consulting Giskard, who is a lore addict and particularly interested in the Black Marsh literature.

On the basis of what he told me, I have written up about 90% of a small Garuda bestiary that takes account of the Hist which I'll post up soon. I'm not making any grand claims about the Hist themselves yet. It mainly concerns the Garuda (or Sarpa).

The one noticeable question that comes to mind after reading this is the subject of the relationship between the two parties. I'm going with the idea of the Hist's relationship with their 'descendents' being symbiotic. The Hist sap was a method of control however, so they may make certain demands of their 'subjects'. In my bestiary, it is necessary to imply that the Khajiit have gained a certain independence from their control and have moved towards worshipping Ja-Kha'jay instead whereas the implication for the Argonians is that they keep their faith with the Hist.

Whether the Khajiit remain in favour with the Hist remains to be seen but, after writing up what I have done, it's the biggest question that stands out for me. Do you happen to know anything extra about the relationship between the Hist and their subjects?

Also, given that my write-up may become either lore or a quest, do you think I should distribute it privately amongst the BM team for review?

btw, Giskard mentioned some 'Shaman Huts' that koniption had created. Do we already have them or should I ask koniption about using them here?

[Ibsen's Ghost]

Okay, ignore the above speculation. Here is my write-up for the Bestiary of the Garuda / Sarpa race. Part of this comes directly from my advisor, Giskard, so he is to be credited with the points on lore. Personally, I think it would be nice to have the player uncover this history as they proceed through the quests but you may also choose to use this as lore material. I could, of course, write this up as a proper lore book, if you wish. Let me know what you think, anyway.

The Garuda / Sarpa

Anatomical Description

The Garuda are a proud, perhaps even haughty, race evolved from the avian life of the swamps and jungles of Elsweyr and the Black Marsh. They might speak in a harsh, guttural tongue, occasionally alternating this with song, perhaps when emotionally engaged. Their still very avian-looking face will struggle with enunciating the language of the men of Cyrodiil and may respond to some lines of questioning with incomprehensible responses. Nonetheless, these responses may appear to be understood, as evinced by the Garuda’s body language and expression.
Their apparent affinity with music and mimicry may give rise to various magical abilities, particularly those of conjuration and mysticism.
Meanwhile, by the time we meet them their wings could be either functional (and aid flight) or vestigial (and remain mere anatomical features). This could be a result of the history as described below.

Evolution

The Garuda, famed for their beauty and blessed as the natural inhabitants of the skies, value freedom and choice above all else.

Like other beast races, however, they were born of the Hist which takes us back to the Dawn era when there existed two races, that which gave rise to the man, the elf and others (men and mer, basically) and that which gave rise to the beast races (in other words, ‘the Hist races’). This latter race, or races, probably evolved by drinking water infected with Hist sap.

The Hist themselves are notoriously elusive and their existence probably spans dimensions, which would explain their rapid appearance and disappearance, seemingly at will. I will stop short of attempting any speculation as to why this is.

Rather, it is clear that they are a force of nature and nature’s will and that they often stand in outright opposition to the will of man, the descendents of their sister race from the dawn era. In fact, they could even be seen as binary opposites although definitions of such are elusive – religion vs. science, earth vs. mind, pattern vs. rule? None of these are truly convincing and far too abstract.

Power of the Hist

The extent to which the Hist ‘control’ their descendents is debatable although it is clear that the exhibit a distinct influence on them. The Argonians ‘worship’ the Hist but it may go deeper than that since Hist sap makes people open to suggestion. However, it may be possible that this is a side-effect purely for non-Hist-races. The ‘Hist races’ may be more resistant to its effects. Nevertheless, this has dark implications for the true origins of the ‘Blackwood Company’. Were the Khajiit and Argonians aware of their actions? And was this a Hist-organised act of revenge or sabotage, perhaps on behalf of a beast race sect or secret society as opposed to a concerted effort on behalf of the races themselves?

Alternatively, it is suggested that the Argonians have a need to lick Hist sap, suggesting some sort of dependency or addiction to it. However, I think it is more likely to be a mental or personal dependency rather than a physical one but it could be both. Given that there is also the suggestion that Hist ‘users’ enjoy a Hist-controlled (to some extent) telepathic link then the social instinct will indeed be addictive in itself. A symbiotic relationship is also convincing and, as the link in question is largely subconscious then the benefits given back to the Hist by their own descendents by means of their dreams and interactions within the world is plausible. In other words, the Argonians get access to higher thought through being the eyes of the Hist and there is a mutual benefit. There is a parallel here with China Mieville’s book in the theme of feeding on dreams.

These ideas recall existing myths about mythic trees such as the ‘tree of knowledge’ of Christians and Jews and, more fantastically, Yggdrasil of the Nordic legends. A more down-to-earth interpretation would be that the Hist are the sum of knowledge of the experience of their descendents and that the Hist races contribute over time to this vast resource, receiving increased bonuses of wisdom along the way. Giskard mentions a story of the Argonians only leaving the Black Marsh so that they can study other cultures. This is the more benevolent point of view of the Hist.

The other power that the Hist exhibit is their natural, Gaia-like, understanding of the natural world. The Black Marsh is a harsh place to live so the Hist may actually control life and all that survive in this location, using it as a last line of defense for the Hist and their ‘subject’ races. Consequently, nature is likely to rebel against the descendents of the non-Hist race from the Dawn era, using effective ‘natural’ or ‘super-natural’ resistance to keep the likes of the Imperials under control. Likewise, any Daedra invasion may have been repelled in the same way. Maybe the name of Mehrunes Dagon is even meaningless to the Black Marsh.

Contact with the Garuda / Sarpa

One of the few pieces of lore on their existence, from ‘Father of the Niben’, might well be significant:

For eleven days, they traveled north, until they came
To a crystalline lake, and eight islands of
Surpassing beauty and peace.
Brilliant flightful creatures of glorious colors
Greeted them in Aldmeri language,
Making the mer wonder, until they
Understood they were only calling back
The word they were speaking without
Understanding it, and then the sailors
Laughed.

Topal the Pilot was enchanted with the islands
And the feathered men who lived there.
There the Niben stayed for a moon, and the bird
Men learned how to speak their own words,
And with taloned feet, to write.
In joy for their new knowledge, they made Topal
Their lord, giving him their islands for the
Gift.
Topal said he would return someday, but first he
Must find the passage east to Firsthold, so
Far away.

This last fragment is bittersweet for a number of reasons.

We know that this strange, friendly feathered people the Pilot encounters will be lost - in fact, this poem is the only one where mention is made of the bird creatures of Cyrodiil. The literacy that Topal gives them is evidently not enough to save them from their eventual fate, likely at the hands of the "cat demons," who we may assume are ancient Khajiiti.

The most obvious, and significant, link to make here is that the proud Garuda betrayed the Hist in some way and were thenceforth executed by the Khajiit. Yet what was their crime and where were the Argonians in all of this?

We know that the Garuda had dealings with the Imperials and may therefore have strayed from the path that the Hist had set for them. We also know that flying creatures are, as a whole, portrayed as fickle due to their freedom of the skies. And if they stray too far, they will not be able to consume Hist sap but may find other ways to feed their need for social and mental growth.

Therefore, the Garuda were wiped out by Khajiti acting on the attenuated impulse of the Hist. In fact, the Khajiti’s own loyalties were in question as they had moved more towards their own gods and were using moon-sugar in their rituals. This confused and complicated the message of the Hist transmitted through the subconscious control of the sap and made the Garuda appear threatening. Meanwhile, it was intended for the Argonians to mediate between them in this far-flung act of research / espionage on the outer lands, as the Argonians are closest to the Hist in terms of their relationship and loyalty.

Acting partly on the call of their new Gods, the Khajiit saw the Garuda as consorting with the enemy and so conducted a lightning strike on their known habitats. They later took action to erase all traces of their existence and may still be found hunting down shreds of evidence in Imperial archives. How they feel about this genocide now is debatable. Did their clans regard it as their mistake, a just act of the ‘Desert law’ (is this called the Ri’za’kar or Riddle’thar?) or an aberration of their Gods? One view is that the act of using Hist sap in the Imperial lands under the guise of the ‘Blackwood Company’ was in fact a vehicle for greater Hist power to make its presence felt. To explain, knowing that the Khajiit owed a debt to the Hist for their error, they sought a pardon by distributing the Hist sap amongst the races of men and mer, thus helping to ‘control’ them according to the Hist’s wishes. This was, however, extremely risky for those carrying out the mission as it may incur a backlash against the race that instigated such a thing. To the Hist, this may have potentially represented the ‘final solution’ in their war with their twin from the Dawn era. Thankfully, the idea never fully flourished due to the actions of a certain noble hero.

The Argonians may also be culpable for the genocide of the Garuda, having not responded appropriately to an ambiguous ‘message’ from the Hist. This message would not have been transmitted in words but by means of the subconscious mental sap effects, but here is a possible transcription of the Hist message to the ‘arrogant’ Garuda: “You wish for independence from the Hist and to fly afield wherever you choose but you have ignored our call too many times. The Hist never goes back on its word and will therefore not take your freedom. Your freedom shall be great, as we have decreed, but you yourselves shall not be as great as you would wish since your very name shall be forgotten and you shall not know your family line.”

The mention of a ‘family line’ was taken by the Khajiit, whose minds were affected by the scale-altering effects of moon-sugar, to mean the broader term of ‘race’. The Argonians, however, knew that the task at hand was simply to get the Garuda to drink from the Hist sap again so that they receive their true ‘punishment’ of memory loss.

Some Argonians might have felt guilty about this and, although the issue divided themselves and the Khajiit, they have nonetheless agreed to remain silent, even though the Khajiit may remain adamant that they were in the right. In the meantime, some Argonians may have felt so guilty that they captured and protected some of the Garuda in the Black Marsh. It is their ironic fate that the Garuda remain captives of their so-called ‘protectors’ and have now lost their freedom, despite the promise of the Hist. However, all of the time between the genocide and now has been spent in rehabilitating the Garuda and repairing the error. Seeing as those that were salvaged were damaged, degenerate or not even whole, the Hist sap has been used to reform the Garuda and apply the original decree of forgetfulness that the Hist had commanded.

This is why we might well see a somewhat bewildered Garuda walking around in the Black Marsh, having escaped from the avian solace provided by their Argonian protectors who comes to learn of the origin of his species through the PC’s actions.

The effects of their enforced retreat from the world is due to the Argonians ‘shameful’ lack of vigilance and therefore the Argonians will be reluctant to let the PC know the truth at first. Secondly, the Garuda’s wings may now have become vestigial to the point that they no longer aid flight due to their ‘protected’ period of incarceration and convalescence.

It is fortunate that the Garuda do not remember the genocide of their people and, because the Empire had traded very profitably with them on numerous occasions and shared knowledge (perhaps forbidden), fortunate for the Hist races that they have remained hidden until now. Now, most records and certainly living memory has forgotten them and they may be ready to be released at last. If they learn of their history, will they accept the Hist decree to remain silent about it?

Culture

Due to their poor memory, and despite a sometimes acute intelligence, Garuda society is highly ritualistic. The ‘grounds’ of their character are not quite so embedded as other Hist races due to their freedom and past history with the Hist, so they do not have ‘values’ as such. Instead, they value spontaneity and the freedom of personal choice. This characterises their society as both beautiful and brutal in equal measure. Garuda are both theatrical and very, very volatile.