Garuda race and other possibilities

[Senten]

Oh,is this the sarpa?
I didnt know that. That's cool.

[Tlo1048]

Originally posted by Senten
Oh,is this the sarpa?
I didn't know that. That's cool.

Garuda.

I can see about putting together some anims on vanilla models and see how we want to go about doing this. I'm thinking Imp anims, and then add some different attacks and such. We'll worry about it later though.

[Deeza]

Ibsen's Ghost, this is some great stuff you're writing. The idea of some of the Hist's "children" disobeying them and being punished is an interesting one and gives us the chance to explore their relationship with the Argonians and other beast peoples in more detail. One or two lore points spring to mind, which you should consider incorporating into this mythology you're writing:

The Khajit aren't a Hist race - they're actually Elves (bizarre though it may seem). They were Bosmer transformed by Azura (we don't know why, but their own legends suggest it was due to a pact with Nirni, the spirit of the world itself), into a species in her own image. From what I know of lore, (and I wouldn't claim to be an expert) it is more likely that the Garuda were displaced by the Ayleids, who regarded all beast peoples (including, from their point of view, humans) as inferior to themselves, and useful only as slaves.

There are also other beast races (orcs, imga and so on) whose origins appear (as far as we know) to be unrelated to the Hist. It seems that they prefer to "uplift" reptilian and amphibian creatures (which could include birds, they are closely related to reptiles after all).

Also, the Sarpa, who are mentioned as being "winged", are said to attack non-argonians on sight. Does this mean they are a separate species to your Garuda?

Please note that none of this intended as criticism. You've made an excellent start to the lore for this race and this is just an attempt to refine and add to that.

[Ibsen's Ghost]

Thanks, Deeza! I'll take that into consideration. You're absolutely sure about the Khajiit? That's a pity because I liked that part. Nonetheless, it can be re-modelled perhaps so that maybe Orcs would replace them, or some lesser Hist race.

Personally, I fancy the idea of the 'Garuda' being the 'Sarpa - Mach II' model, a kind of evolution from the original failed template of 'Sarpa'. After all, there are many Hist races that are said to be 'failed experiments' of some sort. This doesn't necessarily mean that the Garuda would not attack non-Argonians on sight as perhaps the Hist have programmed into them a natural distrust of other races in consideration of what happened to them. The PC might even help to reverse this tendency by virtue of their discoveries, if we chose to use this information as quest details.

[Deeza]

I really do like the "Mark II Sarpa" idea.

Here are a few useful links on the various beast peoples and the Hist which should help you flesh out your background story:

The stuff about the Khajit being Elves is said pretty explicitly in this book from Morrowind:

http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks...ther.shtml

And about orcs being Elves here:

http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks...orcs.shtml

Finally, on the different species in general:

http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks...cial.shtml

It seems that all of the species are ultimately derived either from Elves or Men, except for the Argonians and the other Hist-peoples (Sarpa, Paatru, Naga and so on).

The story of the Hist (what little we know of it) is mostly in here:

http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/anuad.shtml

There is also an interesting theory that the Tsaesci of Akavir and the Hist have a common ancestor, like men and elves, who are descended from the Ehlnofey:

http://www.imperial-library.info/fsg/adv...le01.shtml

The Hist seem to be essentially benevolent towards their offspring, most likely because they really need them for protection. The Hist are really powerful, but seem to be a little too slow to defend themselves from physical threats. The Dunmer cut down almost all of the Hist trees in Black Marsh so that they could make armour from their sap, and they seemed unable to defend themselves:

http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/marobar.shtml

As you can see in the story "the Seed" (number 2), the Hist can get pretty nasty when they've been angered in some way. But even then, they need the Argonians to actually do something before they can use their power. Your Garuda would have had to have done something really bad to get them angry enough to punish them like that...

Just throwing a few ideas around, tell me if you like it:

Perhaps you could expand your story so that rather than just displeasing the Hist with their general nature (which you could argue was the Hist's fault anyway), they actually failed in some major way, which "broke" their symbiosis somehow?

Maybe the Garuda the player meets in Black Marsh could be the "Mark III" version, that the Hist feel they've finally got right? Interesting that they should rework one of their species so many times, when the others were abandoned as failures... perhaps the bird-men have a very specific role?

[Ibsen's Ghost]

Thanks Deeza! That was immensely useful. You really know your lore. I've taken plenty of notes that I can use to develop this and I particularly appreciated your suggestions.

However, I feel a little reluctant to bring the Tsaesci into this if they are not a Hist people that is likely to be around in the Black Marsh at the time of the mod. Nonetheless, the connections made here will probably prove useful. What I'd now like to know about is a little more about the other Hist-peoples such as the Paatru and the Naga.

I expect I'll find some stuff around these forums anyway so I'll go check that out now.

In the meantime, I don't want to be appear to be pushing my other idea too much but the old Redguard legend mentioned in the metaphysical connection with the Tsaesci theory makes me think of Anaster, his own skills and his reason for being in the Black Marshes. If the Hist can hinder Cyrus the Restless in his afterlife then perhaps they possess some power over the dead? Might the mysterious force that destroyed the Sarpa Mach I actually have come from the realm of either the undead, the undying or other denizen of some 'realm' of the dead that Anaster, with his knowledge of voodoo, might be acquainted with?

[Deeza]

One idea we were playing around with at one point was that the Hist actually contain the souls of all the previous generations of Argonians. They can release these souls as guardian spirits (much like the skeletons in Dunmer tombs), to charge up magical artefacts, or perhaps even to reincarnate Argonians for specific missions. Argonian eggs can be used a soul gems, suggesting (again) that they may be born without sentience and recieve it later from the Hist.

I had my own ideas about developing this, which I'll post when I have more time...

Regarding the Tsaesci thing, I only brought it up for the sake of completeness. I don't want to tread on Akavir's toes, particularly since introducing the Tsaesci will be the big thing in their island mod. Perhaps a scholar character could mention the link in a side-quest, but we shouldn't make it a major story feature.

[Ibsen's Ghost]

So we're dealing with a kind of soul-magic? My interpretations have veered more towards creative power, due to their witnessing of the creation. Therefore, they have the power to shape reality, to make and to un-make, but to a limited degree. Of course, both ideas are not exclusive to one another.

But this idea of 'shaping' and 'making' suggests that they are perhaps able to re-route creation so as to fit their ends. That way, any magical art dealing with the dead might find their powers disrupted by such a force. It might block them or lead them to resurrecting someone or something that is not even dead yet or by creating a plane of metaphysical limbo in which to store the 'un-created' or a variety of other juicy paradoxes. Yes, there's definitely a small role for Anaster here, methinks, especially if his art is derived from a degree of control of such a plane of limbo.

As regards the Tsaesci, I will discard the idea in favour of something closer to home. Do we actually have a cat-race born of the Hist? Keeping in line with the 'Father of the Niben' story and an idea that I'm working on now to do with the Hist-races being regarded as a 'family' would appear to make this the best option. I'm thinking perhaps a race evolved from the jaguar, jackal, panther, hyena or cougar. Do we have records of such a thing? Is it possible? Of course, if we do not have records of such a thing then that wouldn't necessarily be the final nail in the coffin for the idea because the Argonians can be said to have executed them for their error and the fact that they may have fraternised with the 'man-born' Khajiit and become influenced by their own religion.

Furthermore, regarding the 'family' notion of the Hist races that I just mentioned, it could be that the Sarpa broke a familial oath or a sort of 'blood tie' which would make them worthy of punishment. And yet, they would be the ones to survive and not the cat race because of either:
a) the slaughter of their brothers by the cat race was the greater crime, or
b) the Sarpa had some special destiny, or
c) a combination of both of the above.

[Deeza]

The soul storage of the Hist was more of a secondary power. Their main one, as you rightly say, was manipulating the physical world and creating new forms of life. It's like genetic engineering using magic. In addition to intelligent life, they've also been known (when their lives are threatened) to create new viruses to fight back against invaders of the marsh. This is why Black Marsh is so full of plagues, and why Argonians are immune to them (an immunity given by the Hist, we assume).

Regarding your cat-men idea, I think we need to avoid making too many new races. As I recall Silgrad's policy on this is that new ones should be limited to ones mentioned in the literature. Your bird-men are fine, because they're in lore, but I think creating some entirely new ones might be a step too far. Plus, all of the Hist races we know about seem to be reptiles or amphibians, which isn't to say that they didn't make others, just that it kind of breaks with their swamp theme.

But fear not - I don't want to shoot down your idea -I just remembered something you could use instead:

There were a race of Khajiit-like creatures that lived in Black Marsh called the Lilmothlit. We know they weren't created by the Hist, because they used to fight the Argonians in ritualised wars. They were eventually wiped out as an unintended side-effect when the Hist created the Khanaten Flu plague to destroy the Imperial garrisons in Black Marsh in the Second Era.

Perhaps the origins of the feud between the Lilmothlit and the Argonians date back to the disappearance of the Birdmen?

Perhaps the Birdmen were even the victims (intentional or otherwise) of an earlier outbreak of biological warfare? Perhaps, living so far from the Hist, they had lost their immunity and fell along with the Hist's enemies?

[Ibsen's Ghost]

That would seem to heal the void sufficiently (and convincingly) left by the absence of the Khajiit idea. For a start, the Lilmothlit are, as you say, cat-related, plus the idea of the Sarpa losing their strength by deign of the fallibility to infection amounts to a lack of loyalty to the Hist, enough to be interpreted as an excess of pride...and yet not too much for them to be forgiven and re-made.

The very fact that there is a possible misconception to be made here about the Hist's intentions is quite quest-worthy since the player may for a long time regard the Hist as an outright evil force until they discover some deeper truth and perhaps ending up fighting in support of the Hist races. Thanks again, Deeza!