Tree Development

[Ibsen's Ghost]

FYI - Whenever I entered a speedtree into the CS, I always used the same number as was quoted to me by Senten. Off the top of my head, I can't think what it was but it should be the same for all original tree varieties that are entered into the esm.

[morcroft]

The seed determines the shape of the tree, and it ought to be tuned for the exact appearance you want. It definitely shouldn't be the same for different species unless the trees are dull enough it makes no difference. I know if you use the wrong seeds for my Tupelo or Swamp Cypress they look stupid.

Not only that, but you should be able to enter a whole bunch of them and get different trees selected at random. It was the big buzz when Oblivion came out that all the trees looked different (an exaggeration) - but this doesn't work on my machine even for vanilla trees. Do you find all vanilla swamp cypresses are the same shape, for instance?

This is actually quite important, because if this is a feature that works for most players but not for me then I can supply you seeds for half-a-dozen aesthetically pleasing variations which the game should distribute at random.

[Ibsen's Ghost]

Well, the models, as they are entered into the CS, all look the same. I haven't tried re-entering vanilla trees into the CS using a series of different seeds though. It would be worth looking into it anyway.

[morcroft]

No - I'm thinking in-game. I'm pretty sure in the CS they just take the first on the list, but the Swamp Cypress is one of those with several seeds defined in the vanilla game - so they ought to look diffferent. Just doesn't work for me.

Of course even if it doesn't work, I'm certain it would be possible to use exactly the same model with different seeds to get a variety of trees, you'd just need a different root object in the CS for each one, and I guess the landscape generator won't then select between them.

I will send you my seed value lists - I selected half a dozen for each model - so you can see what they look like. I think it's especially important for the bamboos, because it breaks up the heights.

[Ibsen's Ghost]

Yes, that could prove really useful. Sometimes getting the right shape and size can be crucial in helping to avoid clipping and, therefore, lots and lots of landscaping work.

[morcroft]

As far as I can make out on my copy, Oblivion seems to use the seed value that was assigned top of the seed list when the master form id was created. Thereafter it ignores any change to the seed. Create a new form ID (not by copying the old one) and give it a new seed, and you get a different tree.
These five fatsias are all slightly different and are each different CS Form IDs, created with a different seed value:



Oblivion is supposed to do this if you just put the seeds into the list box in the CS form editor - but it doesn't on mine!

I think this is just buggy Oblivion code. I did the same thing with the cypress - this is the result in the CS:



They're definitely different, even in the CS. And here they are in-game:


They have the same billboard, of course, but I hardly think different billboards would be worth the 340kb each...

[Siegfried]

I'm impressed by the quality of those trees.

Do you ever have problems with your custom speedtrees changing shape from the way they were in CAD, and randomly altering appearance when loaded at different times in the CS?

[morcroft]

Originally posted by Siegfried
I'm impressed by the quality of those trees.

Thank you!
Because I only have SpeedtreeCAD Lite I was getting no success until I worked out the stuff I've posted in Speedtree texture and collision tips . Now I can work with composite textures the results are much better.

Do you ever have problems with your custom speedtrees changing shape from the way they were in CAD, and randomly altering appearance when loaded at different times in the CS?

Haven't seen anything actually random, but the way the CS acts is pretty weird and the behaviour I have seen could look the way you describe. What version of STCAD do you use?
I'm still researching this so if you're up for it we can look into it some more.
It's worth checking to see if this matches what you see:

Make (or open) a speedtree in CAD - use the randomiser to pick three seeds that give recognisably different results.
Save the tree with Seed1 selected and randomise off.
Rename the tree and billboard eg STTest.
Create a new esp in CS. Create four trees from the .spt. Create them as New objects - click new then browse for the spt each time - don't just rename an existing tree.
1. don't assign a seed, and save it as STTestNoSeed
2. assign just seed2, and save it as STTestSeed2
3. assign just seed3, and save it as STTestSeed3
4. assign both seed2 and seed3, and save it as STTestSeed23

When you place the trees in the CS, I expect you would see these trees:
1. seed1 tree
2. seed2 tree
3. seed3 tree
4. the tree for whichever of seed2 or seed3 has the smaller first digit, so shows first in the CS list

When you play the game, I would expect all the trees to stay the same. Tree 4 is supposed to randomly assign between seed2 and seed3, but I don't believe this works.

Save the esp with a new name.

Edit all the trees, remove the existing seed and add Seed1 to all four. The CS says it is recalculating the trees (or similar) but nothing changes, either in the CS or in game.

Now, if you see the same behaviour as I do then we can say (probably) that the CS embeds one seed value in the tree's object form when it's created and then sticks with that however much you try to change it.

Alternatively, let me know what it actually does!

My guess is that you may have seen different shapes because the seed applied wasn't the one you told the CS to apply, either because you copied and renamed an existing form, or because in some way this embedded seed value got reset.

[Ibsen's Ghost]

I remember Siegfried's contributions to OB tree-making from way back. In fact, I still have those Valenwoods and Charred Oaks in the BM archive today...although they're pretty difficult to fit into a worldspace like BM convincingly. Anyway, you two working together makes perfect sense.

Further to that, and I realise that this is getting a bit ahead of ourselves, but the next region I'll work on after the Talu Swamps will be Murkwood. For Murkwood, I was settled on using the Charred Oaks but with a different bark texture....though if you have the time after these trees, morcroft, then I could make suggestions on a future project to you...I do have something particular in mind.

[Siegfried]

Alright morcroft, I'll see if I can't get speedtree working again. I think I have CAD 3.4 Lite, but its been awhile. Tried installing to my new vista PC several months ago, but that failed.

Fortunately I'm at home and have my old desktop with 3.4 on it too, so I'll see about running some of those tests tomorrow. Can't today, I've got a long day of work and then a date afterwords, so I'm booked.